Author Topic: LODO and Decoction Mashing  (Read 3203 times)

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2019, 03:36:21 AM »
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed. 




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Okay, where are the sources on that?  I appreciate your input, but would love to see the science on that.

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The Beerery

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2019, 03:38:29 AM »
I literally wrote the book on low oxygen brewing.   My sources are here


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2019, 03:41:55 AM »
I literally wrote the book on low oxygen brewing.   My sources are here


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


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Sweet! Thanks!  That's actually where I started my research for brewing LODO.  Thanks for supplying the community with that!

So, Denny's research actually shows there is a significant correlation that Decoction method is preferred to step mashing.  That said, we haven't seen any research for Decoction vs LODO. 

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The Beerery

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LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2019, 03:47:22 AM »
Oh yes we have,  which why we recommend not doing it.   Very few in Germany are decoction mashing anything anymore, and usually if they do it’s just Hefeweizen.   It’s a gelatinization temp of the wheat starch and efficiency thing though. 

People like ayinger, paulaner, spaten, weihenstephaner, etc are step mashing.   Augustiner, and bitburger are the only ones that come to mind that are still decocting.  Mostly single decoctions at that.  WITH THAT SAID the have multimillion dollar brewhouses where slurrys are pumped in a inert environment. 


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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2019, 03:48:54 AM »
Oh yes we have,  which why we recommend not doing it.   Very few in Germany are decoction mashing anything anymore, and usually if they do it’s just Hefeweizen.   It’s a gelatinization temp of the wheat starch and efficiency thing though. 

People like ayinger, paulaner, spaten, weihenstephaner, etc are step mashing.   Augustiner, and bitburger are the only ones that come to mind that are still decocting.  WITH THAT SAID the have multimillion dollar brewhouses where slurrys are pumped in a inert environment. 


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Oh cool!!!  It's actually kind of funny, I just got back from my trip to Bavaria and Augusteiner were my favorites!

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The Beerery

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2019, 03:50:20 AM »
Sure, augustiner is amazing.  But it’s not decoction that makes them that. 


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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2019, 03:52:31 AM »
Sure, augustiner is amazing.  But it’s not decoction that makes them that. 


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Sure, it's the super sophisticated equipment that isn't available to homebrewers (for a reasonable price anyway).

Anyway, thanks! 

Now that I've decided to go LoDO for my brewday tomorrow, do you have suggestions for step mashing? I'd have to do infusion as I can't directly heat my MT.

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The Beerery

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2019, 03:57:52 AM »
Well equipment and basically the most highly trained brewing professionals. 


Without knowing your malt lots I don’t.  Dough in, beta somewhere in the 140’s (could be 144-149 depending on gelatinization temps), some alpha around 162-4, and a mash out around 170. 

Have all water deoxygenated/sulfites and add gently. 
Though I don’t know that I would do that on my first go round with the method.  You will already have enough changes in routine.  Get the bugs worked out on the first 10 batches then turn the levers. 


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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2019, 03:59:06 AM »
Well equipment and basically the most highly trained brewing professionals. 


Without knowing your malt lots I don’t.  Dough in, beta somewhere in the 140’s (could be 144-149 depending on gelatinization temps), some alpha around 162-4, and a mash out around 170. 

Have all water deoxygenated/sulfites and add gently. 
Though I don’t know that I would do that on my first go round with the method.  You will already have enough changes in routine.  Get the bugs worked out on the first 10 batches then turn the levers. 


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Cool, I'll start simple... Maybe this isn't the recipe to start trying new things on as I intend to enter it into a comp.

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Offline Robert

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2019, 11:45:21 AM »
 Brewtopalonian,  I had made a couple of attempts to go all in on low oxygen.  Since I already had pretty solid side hot side practices and my cold side locked down tight, most of the adjustments were hardly intrusive:  adding antioxidants to my water treatment regime, adding mash, lauter and HLT caps.  In my sleep.  The PITA that held me back was deoxygenating the liquor in the first place.  Boiling and cooling was just impractical in my system and on my brew day schedule.  But there's the yeast scavenging method detailed on the LOB site.  I'd always balked at it because I was sure it would contribute some objectionable flavor.  Well I finally tried it.  Easy as can be, works perfectly, no flavors added... even if it did, it would be one of those cases the benefits far outweigh.  With one simple technique,  it's now been possible for me, with a pretty old school setup on the hot side, to implement a low oxygen brewhouse.  It might be something you want to consider too.  Anyway, good luck.
Rob Stein
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Offline BrewBama

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LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2019, 12:36:29 PM »
I have been making smaller steps (though not required) as described in BRAUWELT INTERNATIONAL | 2016/V 309:





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« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 12:40:57 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline Robert

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2019, 12:58:30 PM »
I have been making smaller steps (though not required) as described in BRAUWELT INTERNATIONAL | 2016/V 309:





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That flexibility is one great advantage of your RIMS system.  Using direct fire on the kettle, I find it more practical to use a single beta rest target, which may drop off a bit and be boosted back once during the 30 minute period.  This also limits stirring, a non issue for you.  I suspect Brewtopalonian, using infusions, will have to assess his capacity to achieve and hold temperatures and just how many and how large infusions he has room to make in planning a step program.  If his goal is to end up with a full volume mash and no sparge, less restricted.  But you still need room to hit and hold the more critical 160°F and 170°F steps.
Rob Stein
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Offline denny

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2019, 02:33:40 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

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If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Start on pg. 25.....http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
Super cool!  Thanks for that!  So, what's your opinion on LODO then Denny?  Should I forgo Decoction for LoDO?  Should I skip both and just infuse? 

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My opinion is that whatever advantages LODO may provide aren't worth the expense and effort for me.  You should make your own decision.
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Offline denny

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2019, 02:35:58 PM »
I literally wrote the book on low oxygen brewing.   My sources are here


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


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Sweet! Thanks!  That's actually where I started my research for brewing LODO.  Thanks for supplying the community with that!

So, Denny's research actually shows there is a significant correlation that Decoction method is preferred to step mashing.  That said, we haven't seen any research for Decoction vs LODO. 

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You're overlooking the big picture...while decoction was preferred over single infusion, if you combine infusion and go preference it's more than decoction.  That says to me there is no clear preference for decocted beers.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Robert

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2019, 02:38:11 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

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If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Start on pg. 25.....http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
Super cool!  Thanks for that!  So, what's your opinion on LODO then Denny?  Should I forgo Decoction for LoDO?  Should I skip both and just infuse? 

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My opinion is that whatever advantages LODO may provide aren't worth the expense and effort for me.  You should make your own decision.
Yeah, as I mentioned it was ultimately so little effort to make the last adjustments that it makes no sense for me not to do it. But everybody has their own goals and priorities.  And for certain styles it just doesn't make sense.  But if you think it might be for you, only one way to find out.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.