Author Topic: LODO and Decoction Mashing  (Read 3503 times)

The Beerery

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2019, 02:39:54 PM »
I'm just so happy we can finally have a civilized discussion about this on here. Unlike many other places.

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2019, 03:16:31 PM »
Me too!  This is an interesting conversation for sure.  In brewing, there are a hundred "right" ways to make beer and it's great to hear everyone's opinion.

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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2019, 03:21:24 PM »
After careful thought and listening to everyone on here, I think I will try my hand at LoDo today using a step mash infusion.  It really won't change much about my normal brewday and is actually less work than Decoction.  I do have to use the LoDO calculator to figure out my additions, but I am already fairly fluent with Bru'n water and this shouldn't be much additional work.

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Offline mainebrewer

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2019, 04:25:56 PM »
To echo Robert, I've been able to implement many of the LoDo procedures in my basic brewing system (single burner, mash in a cooler) with little or no additional expense and time. I do intend to add a pump to the system in the near future which will allow me to implement a couple more of the recommended practices.
While it may be confirmation bias since I haven't done any side by side experiments, I find that the beer stays fresher longer. 
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Offline brian_welch

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2019, 04:50:52 PM »
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed.  As Zee Germans have found since about 1970, that is does more hurt than good. 


I think you mean Southern Bavarians and large industrial brewers, not all Germans. Definitely not the Franconians (not to mention the Czechs).  https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/ Homebrewing for many is a lot closer to old school, small family brewery brewing (open fermenting, for example) rather than large modern industrial brewing. 

One of the more interesting things I saw at HomebrewCon on Friday was back-to-back panels in the same ballroom with Denny claiming that decoction is a myth and doesn't make a difference (and referencing his experiment) followed by Gordon Strong right after saying that decoction definitely makes a (very positive) difference. Looking now at Denny's results it sure looks to me that decoction is preferred!

I have learned a lot from the LODO folks and try to incorporate as much of it is is practical (closed transfers, for example), but I am cheap and a traditionalist and I enjoy decoction.  Maybe if I were to brew a Helles (which is what LODO seems to be really all about) I might try to go all in on LODO. But it is probably my least favorite lager style. Guess that's why in my upcoming German beercation I am spending 5 days in Franconia and half a day in Munich. Brew what makes you happy and in a way that makes you happy. But don't think you HAVE to brew LODO since all the great lager brewers are LODO, because they are not.


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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2019, 05:03:19 PM »
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

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The Beerery

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2019, 05:03:31 PM »
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed.  As Zee Germans have found since about 1970, that is does more hurt than good. 


I think you mean Southern Bavarians and large industrial brewers, not all Germans. Definitely not the Franconians (not to mention the Czechs).  https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/ Homebrewing for many is a lot closer to old school, small family brewery brewing (open fermenting, for example) rather than large modern industrial brewing. 

Right, most everyone has only had the macro Germans.

The frankonians/czech are certainly old word, and homebrew practices mirror that of those.

However they know about HSA, and will tell you about it, and their house flavor. Not to mention the beer travels horribly.

I would wholeheartedly disagree on helles being the primary style to brew low oxygen, though it is a prime example. But all other beer styles brewed by the same brewers that make these helles, are brewed in the same fashion.

We had a decoction only brewer born and raised in Munich, when we started out with the group that brought this forward. Lets just say he has stopped decocting. Not to say YOU can't do it, but on our scale, especially with non specialized homebrew equipment, it won't be as good of a beer in the terms of the low oxygen beers. Not to say it won't be a good beer, but in these terms (low oxygen brewing) you will have a better product, since oxygen mitigation is paramount.

By all means though, brew how you want too.

The Beerery

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2019, 05:04:36 PM »
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

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http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2019, 05:08:25 PM »
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

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http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Thanks... I've been there and scavanged what I can from it.  But the spreadsheet link is 404.

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The Beerery

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2019, 05:11:08 PM »
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Thanks... I've been there and scavanged what I can from it.  But the spreadsheet link is 404.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Nearly everything in the brewing world works better with metric.

ppm = mg/l

20ppm =20mg/l

so for every L of brewing water add 20mg of antioxidant.

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2019, 05:13:04 PM »
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Thanks... I've been there and scavanged what I can from it.  But the spreadsheet link is 404.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Nearly everything in the brewing world works better with metric.

ppm = mg/l

20ppm =20mg/l

so for every L of brewing water add 20mg of antioxidant.
Ah yes, I love metric.  Thanks for that clarification... Time to do the math.

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Offline denny

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2019, 05:14:33 PM »
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed.  As Zee Germans have found since about 1970, that is does more hurt than good. 


I think you mean Southern Bavarians and large industrial brewers, not all Germans. Definitely not the Franconians (not to mention the Czechs).  https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/ Homebrewing for many is a lot closer to old school, small family brewery brewing (open fermenting, for example) rather than large modern industrial brewing. 

One of the more interesting things I saw at HomebrewCon on Friday was back-to-back panels in the same ballroom with Denny claiming that decoction is a myth and doesn't make a difference (and referencing his experiment) followed by Gordon Strong right after saying that decoction definitely makes a (very positive) difference. Looking now at Denny's results it sure looks to me that decoction is preferred!

I have learned a lot from the LODO folks and try to incorporate as much of it is is practical (closed transfers, for example), but I am cheap and a traditionalist and I enjoy decoction.  Maybe if I were to brew a Helles (which is what LODO seems to be really all about) I might try to go all in on LODO. But it is probably my least favorite lager style. Guess that's why in my upcoming German beercation I am spending 5 days in Franconia and half a day in Munich. Brew what makes you happy and in a way that makes you happy. But don't think you HAVE to brew LODO since all the great lager brewers are LODO, because they are not.

Decoction was preferred to single infusion.  But if you add nbo preference to infusion, it was more than preferred decoction.  People did not have a clear preference for decocted beer.
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2019, 05:40:55 PM »
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Thanks... I've been there and scavanged what I can from it.  But the spreadsheet link is 404.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Nearly everything in the brewing world works better with metric.

ppm = mg/l

20ppm =20mg/l

so for every L of brewing water add 20mg of antioxidant.

So, by the math I have 34.45L of water total.  34.45 x 20 = 689

So if I use the recommended 45/45/10 method that means I add .689g NaMeta, .689g AA, and .0689g BTB?

I can't even measure units that small with my current scale... Does this seem right to you though?
Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Offline Robert

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2019, 05:54:30 PM »
The antioxidants I can't argue with, but I use BtB at the manufacturer's recommended rate of 6g/hL,  which is about 2g for you.  I use it late in the boil, a minute or two before Whirlfloc, at the same rate but calculated according to the post boil volume,  so a smaller addition (for me the additions are around 2g and 1.4g.)  HTH
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2019, 07:31:01 PM »
The antioxidants I can't argue with, but I use BtB at the manufacturer's recommended rate of 6g/hL,  which is about 2g for you.  I use it late in the boil, a minute or two before Whirlfloc, at the same rate but calculated according to the post boil volume,  so a smaller addition (for me the additions are around 2g and 1.4g.)

^^^^
This.

Forget you ever heard about 45/45/10. It's a limiting factor for those with the component parts. It is actual a hindrance and many who were using the Antioxin SBT blend were having to increase BtB dose anyway when meta levels got lower and lower.

Step 1: Find Meta dose (0.689g)
Step 2: Duplicate that dose with AA (0.689g)
Step 3: Dose BtB per manufacturer
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