Author Topic: LODO and Decoction Mashing  (Read 1935 times)

Offline Brewtopalonian

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LODO and Decoction Mashing
« on: July 02, 2019, 09:26:07 PM »
I am in a dilemma right now as I want to try my hand at low dissolved oxygen brewing but I also want to use a Decoction mash schedule.  My question is fairly simple, does Decoction mashing destroy the purpose of low oxygen brewing?  Secondary question; if not, is there a Best practice I should be utilizing?

Thanks for your input!

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Online natebrews

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2019, 09:45:32 PM »
Decoctions are basically incompatible with low oxygen brewing due to the oxygen you will pick up during those steps.  If you want to try out low oxygen brewing I would stick with a non-decoction mashing regiments.
Risk of failure should be no deterrent to trying.

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2019, 09:46:51 PM »
Decoctions are basically incompatible with low oxygen brewing due to the oxygen you will pick up during those steps.  If you want to try out low oxygen brewing I would stick with a non-decoction mashing regiments.
Thanks Nate!  Kind of what I thought.  I was thinking that the boiling of the thick mash might negate that.

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Online natebrews

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2019, 09:49:26 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Risk of failure should be no deterrent to trying.

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2019, 09:53:31 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Offline Robert

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2019, 10:00:55 PM »
Decoctions are basically incompatible with low oxygen brewing due to the oxygen you will pick up during those steps.  If you want to try out low oxygen brewing I would stick with a non-decoction mashing regiments.
Thanks Nate!  Kind of what I thought.  I was thinking that the boiling of the thick mash might negate that.

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The boiling will drive oxygen out, but it will already have been added in there and done its damage.  The idea of low oxygen brewhouse method is to get all the oxygen out of the water before mash in, and then not let any more in throughout the process.  So pulling decoctions just doesn't fit.  Note this is maybe the biggest factor in the divergence of Czech and German Pilsners -- the one is LODO all the way, the other is exposed to HSA throughout, from mash in, to decoctions, to collecting wort in open grants, to old time coolships and Baudelot coolers.  If you want to try decoctions, try a Czech style and forego all the LODO measures.  It would be a fascinating comparison especially if you used the same grain and hop recipe for each!
Rob Stein
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Offline Robert

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2019, 10:03:59 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Rob Stein
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2019, 10:11:31 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

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Offline Robert

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2019, 10:16:27 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

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If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!  
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2019, 10:26:54 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

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If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!
I disagree a little.  Color isn't the only reason for Decoction.  I am a firm believer that boiling of the grain really draws out that bread crust delicious toasty flavor we all drool over in a good pilsner. 

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Offline denny

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2019, 11:15:29 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2019, 11:18:59 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Offline denny

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2019, 11:20:16 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Start on pg. 25.....http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2019, 11:25:07 PM »
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Start on pg. 25.....http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
Super cool!  Thanks for that!  So, what's your opinion on LODO then Denny?  Should I forgo Decoction for LoDO?  Should I skip both and just infuse? 

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The Beerery

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LODO and Decoction Mashing
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2019, 03:30:43 AM »
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed.  As Zee Germans have found since about 1970, that is does more hurt than good. 




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« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 03:35:14 AM by The Beerery »