[Pope of Dope]

Using Bru'n Water, my profile for a Hef. that resembles the Munich profile. I could use a second set of eyes on this before I begin, haven't built up from 0 in a while.

6lbs White Wheat, 6lbs Pilsner

(using a no sparge BIAB method)
Beginning with 7.5 gal of RO water, 1g gypsum, .2g cal chloride, 5g chalk & 12ml 88% lactic.

Used the chalk to bump up the calcium, then had to counter it with the acid.

[denny]

Using Bru'n Water, my profile for a Hef. that resembles the Munich profile. I could use a second set of eyes on this before I begin, haven't built up from 0 in a while.

6lbs White Wheat, 6lbs Pilsner

(using a no sparge BIAB method)
Beginning with 7.5 gal of RO water, 1g gypsum, .2g cal chloride, 5g chalk & 12ml 88% lactic.

Used the chalk to bump up the calcium, then had to counter it with the acid.

Chalk is pretty much ineffective due to the fact that it doesn't dissolve well.

[RC]

As Denny indicates, skip the chalk. It's mostly insoluble and so won't give you the calcium you're looking for. I'd simply use 4g CaCl2. That'll get you ~40ppm calcium in 7.5 gallons of RO water, which is about right for a hef. If you have a pH meter, use it. You'll probably need to adjust pH downward with lactic to the neighborhood of 5.5. But for this you'll only need 1 to 2 mL, not 12.

[The Beerery]

FYI I know of no brewery in Munich using a city water profile. They all have water systems, and realized a long time ago hard water and pale beers don't mix.

[denny]

FYI I know of no brewery in Munich using a city water profile. They all have water systems, and realized a long time ago hard water and pale beers don't mix.

THIS^^^^^

Use a water profile based on color and flavor, not city of origin.

[hopfenundmalz]

FYI I know of no brewery in Munich using a city water profile. They all have water systems, and realized a long time ago hard water and pale beers don't mix.

Agreed.

Some have deep wells that access soft water. Ayinger's is 603 meters deep.

Unless you have talked to the brewery about their water treatment, use the right water profile for the beer you are brewing.

[dmtaylor]

I agree with others on the chalk.  Skip it.

I'll also be the jerk who says "if the water tastes good, then it IS good".  Within reason of course.  You should aim for mash pH around 5.6 ish for a hefeweizen, maybe even 6.0(!).  See here:

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

Beyond that... well the yeast character predominates the style, to the point that the water itself isn't critical.  Just pH and alkalinity.  Experiment and see if you think it matters much.  I've yet to run any good water experiments and I know the vast majority of us are still in the same boat.  I mean, you'd have to do blind triangles to know for sure if it even matters.  We fool ourselves into thinking things are very important when in reality.... well who knows.

Cheers.

[Pope of Dope]

Thanks, everybody.

Living in Los Angeles I've made some bad tap water batches. There's only so much you can do with it, and when it comes to the lighter styles, it comes out dirty tasting.

Didn't know about the chalk, that is good to know, and to be a jerk about it, why Marin is it even listed as a mineral addition if it is ultimately ineffective?

I have no deep wells. So best I can do about my dilemma is to go to Ralphs and buy RO water in gallon jugs. My new water additions look like this:
.9g gypsum
.2g cal chlor.
5 ml Lactic.

It gives me a pretty close profile to Boiled Munich.

[The Beerery]

I agree with others on the chalk.  Skip it.

I'll also be the jerk who says "if the water tastes good, then it IS good".  Within reason of course.  You should aim for mash pH around 5.6 ish for a hefeweizen, maybe even 6.0(!).  See here:

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

Beyond that... well the yeast character predominates the style, to the point that the water itself isn't critical.  Just pH and alkalinity.  Experiment and see if you think it matters much.  I've yet to run any good water experiments and I know the vast majority of us are still in the same boat.  I mean, you'd have to do blind triangles to know for sure if it even matters.  We fool ourselves into thinking things are very important when in reality.... well who knows.

Cheers.

Weiss production is as precise as lager production. Yes yeast dominates the style, but that is far from everything.

[The Beerery]

Thanks, everybody.

Living in Los Angeles I've made some bad tap water batches. There's only so much you can do with it, and when it comes to the lighter styles, it comes out dirty tasting.

Didn't know about the chalk, that is good to know, and to be a jerk about it, why Marin is it even listed as a mineral addition if it is ultimately ineffective?

I have no deep wells. So best I can do about my dilemma is to go to Ralphs and buy RO water in gallon jugs. My new water additions look like this:
.9g gypsum
.2g cal chlor.
5 ml Lactic.

It gives me a pretty close profile to Boiled Munich.

Gypsum is wicked out of place in German beer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RC]

Thanks, everybody.

why...is [chalk] even listed as a mineral addition if it is ultimately ineffective?

I've always wondered this myself. And in my version of Bru'n water (1.18), it even says in the Water Knowledge tab that "chalk should not be used in brewing." So it is a little puzzling why it's an option in the Water Adjustment tab. I can see how it might be confusing to brewers relatively new to adjusting water chemistry.

That notwithstanding, Martin's knowledge/tips/guidance/advice has always steered me well.

[Robert]

Thanks, everybody.

why...is [chalk] even listed as a mineral addition if it is ultimately ineffective?

I've always wondered this myself. And in my version of Bru'n water (1.18), it even says in the Water Knowledge tab that "chalk should not be used in brewing." So it is a little puzzling why it's an option in the Water Adjustment tab. I can see how it might be confusing to brewers relatively new to adjusting water chemistry.

That notwithstanding, Martin's knowledge/tips/guidance/advice has always steered me well.

I think maybe Marin has it covered.  He tells you not to use chalk, and tries to explain why.  If he didn't include the option, some yahoo know-it-alls would entirely dismiss his program as incomplete and so clearly not to be taken seriously.  Then at the bottom is the disclaimer to the effect  that "user assumes responsibility for results."  It's a poor carpenter blames his tools.  (And maybe somewhere in the world there's a brewer who actually has the capacity to provide the kind of extreme conditions where carbonate is actually able to be dissociated.   Right.)

[RC]

I think maybe Marin has it covered.  He tells you not to use chalk, and tries to explain why.  If he didn't include the option, some yahoo know-it-alls would entirely dismiss his program as incomplete and so clearly not to be taken seriously.  Then at the bottom is the disclaimer to the effect  that "user assumes responsibility for results."  It's a poor carpenter blames his tools.  (And maybe somewhere in the world there's a brewer who actually has the capacity to provide the kind of extreme conditions where carbonate is actually able to be dissociated.   Right.)

With due respect: come on, man. You yourself have griped in the past about how the AHA website isn't always accurate or current, but yet it should be the go-to place for accurate and current homebrewing knowledge. Would you end that gripe if the AHA website peddled inaccurate info but included the disclaimer, "user assumes responsibility for results"?

The Bru'n water spreadsheet isn't affiliated with the AHA (as far as I know), but we all know its stature in the homebrewing world, and so it's understandable that homebrewers of all experiences would rely on it, and use chalk--after all, if this highly acclaimed water-adjustment homebrewing spreadsheet, created by a homebrewing water guru, includes chalk as an option, it must actually be a real water-adjustment option, right?

Nope. It simply shouldn't include chalk as an option for adjusting water chemistry. Full stop. I don't care what disclaimers it includes.

[Robert]

No, you're absolutely right, RC.  I was reaching, trying to play devil's advocate, when what we need is clarity and pragmatic guidance.  Chalk just shouldn't be there at all, perpetuating a misguided belief.  It's in all the calculators and books, unfortunately.  It's not that the numbers are   fundamentally wrong, but the inferences their inclusion encourages make this a tremendous disservice to the user.  The numbers describe a real theoretical potential, just one that can never be realized in this universe as constituted.  And the caveats given, by Martin and others, should be more direct.  They tend to describe chalk as "difficult" to dissolve.  Like I find it "difficult" to levitate my car like a Jedi.  This would make an excellent topic for an article on the AHA website or Zymurgy.  It would be a very short article, but invaluable.

[mabrungard]

Wow!! I'm Marin now?? I'm hoping my name fits me to a T.

Chalk certainly is usable in brewing and its not a mistake to include that option in a calculator. The real problem is that users don't understand how difficult it is to dissolve chalk in water. Unless the user is employing pressurized CO2 to supply the carbonic acid necessary to achieve solubility, its not going to work as the brewer assumes or intends. It appears that I should incorporate some sort of pop up warning when a user puts a value in the chalk addition cell.

The other thing that needs to be pointed out is that many Bru'n Water profiles include the alkalinity (presented as bicarbonate in Bru'n Water) that would be present in the raw water from their water source. In many cases, the brewers of old had to implement techniques or additions to neutralize that alkalinity. That is the case in Bru'n Water too. While you could ADD that alkalinity to create a more authentic starting water profile, you would almost certainly have to neutralize it in the mashing and sparging water to produce a desirable beer. I suggest that brewers ignore the bicarbonate and calcium targets that are presented in water profiles and only add the minerals and acids necessary to produce an acceptable mashing pH and low sparging water alkalinity. The rest of the water profile ion concentrations are what you should consider your real targets.

Sulfate is indeed a very useful and DESIRABLE component in brewing German beers. One only has to taste a good German Pils or Kolsch to know that sulfate is an important feature in their overall beer perception. Even in southern Bavarian styles, the low sulfate content provides a slight drying in the beer's finish to help them avoid being cloying or overly full. Unfortunately, there are under-educated individuals that continue myths such as sulfate causes undesirable effects with noble hops or sulfate will create bitter beer. I can only state that they are incorrect in their perceptions and admissions. There is room for PROPER sulfate levels in German beer brewing. It should be low in Bavarian styles.