Author Topic: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?  (Read 1581 times)

Offline Visor

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2019, 04:33:32 PM »
I used caraway to mimic the taste of dark rye bread.

   Pumpernickel beer? I've never managed to make a rye beer that tastes like rye bread, but I've never really tried. Interesting idea though - I dearly love pumpernickel bread, I doubt that adding caraway is the secret though. My experience with caraway in beer is a lot of extra bitterness but very little of the aromatic aspect of those wondrous little seeds.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 04:36:46 PM by Visor »
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Online Robert

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2019, 04:54:51 PM »
As a big fan and and baker of real European style rye breads, I just have to get this off my chest.  Caraway has no place whatsoever in rye bread.  In Sauerkraut, in cheese, in lots of stuff.  Not rye bread.  (The American breads containing it are virtually devoid of rye.)  Rye itself, when fermented, whether by Sauerteig (sourdough) or by beer yeast, has a very distinctive, malty-fruity flavor.  Maybe you have made beer that tastes like rye bread, but have never had the pleasure of experiencing the real taste of rye bread. There, I feel better now.  Carry on.
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Online goose

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2019, 12:58:17 PM »
As a big fan and and baker of real European style rye breads, I just have to get this off my chest.  Caraway has no place whatsoever in rye bread.  In Sauerkraut, in cheese, in lots of stuff.  Not rye bread.  (The American breads containing it are virtually devoid of rye.)  Rye itself, when fermented, whether by Sauerteig (sourdough) or by beer yeast, has a very distinctive, malty-fruity flavor.  Maybe you have made beer that tastes like rye bread, but have never had the pleasure of experiencing the real taste of rye bread. There, I feel better now.  Carry on.

Not disputing your claim, Rob, as you are way more knowledgeable about bread making than I am.  However, I made a pumpernickel porter last year and researched a lot of recipes for the bread before I brewed it. I got the idea for the beer from the Tamoka Brewery in Port Orange, FL who made a good one.  Yes, pumpernickel is a dark rye bread but every recipe I looked at had caraway seed in it.  I brewed my rye porter with more rye than I normally use and added caraway seed to it.  It came out pretty good the first time and I entered it in a competition in Cleveland where it was well received.  One of the judges said it needed more caraway which I am a bit reluctant to do since the spice can get a bit overpowering quickly.

But caraway in an authentic rye bread, I agree that it should not be there although I have had some from bakeries that put it in there.  But they are not baking to the European style.
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Offline Visor

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2019, 04:48:52 PM »
   Thanks for the enlightenment Rob, but I'm gonna continue to put caraway in my rye bread, cuz I like it that way and cuz I'm a heathen and really don't give a flip if what I consume conforms to any standard other than what tastes good to me ;). Interestingly, I've found that just about any treber flour that contains dark grains will give bread a definite rye flavor, caraway or no caraway.
   I am curious how it came to be that rye bread in this country almost always contains caraway, are we Americans just never content to leave stuff as we found it?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 04:54:47 PM by Visor »
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Online Robert

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2019, 05:04:38 PM »


   Thanks for the enlightenment Rob, but I'm gonna continue to put caraway in my rye bread, cuz I like it that way and cuz I'm a heathen and really don't give a flip if what I consume conforms to any standard other than what tastes good to me ;). Interestingly, I've found that just about any treber flour that contains dark grains will give bread a definite rye flavor, caraway or no caraway.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant or anything.   I just so often see the comment, "I had a rye beer and couldn't taste rye," or "it didn't add the flavor I heard it would."  Most, unlike you obviously, have never tasted rye, though.  In American commercial rye breads, I can't detect any rye flavor.  They, even the dark ones (basically white bread and caramel color,) normally contain only enough rye flour to make it over the "and less than 2% of" line on the ingredient list so they can legally call it rye bread, and all the characteristic flavor comes from caraway or other ingredients.

So yeah, put whatever you want in your beer.  Or bread.  That's why we do it ourselves.  Just saying,  rye has a very unique flavor but it can be masked by the spice.  And rye itself is delicious  and worth discovering. 

And just to be fair I should probably bake a loaf of caraway-laden deli-style rye bread again soon.  Even that's way better homemade than store bought.
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Offline denny

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2019, 05:09:25 PM »
Rob, have you tried artisinal rye breads?  We have some great ones around here...without caraway.
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Online Robert

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2019, 05:30:42 PM »
Rob, have you tried artisinal rye breads?  We have some great ones around here...without caraway.
Yeah, there is one really good German bakery locally here (shout out to Reinecker's.)  They tend to the more intensely sour and dense Northwest German style, while I like a little milder touch.  (And they make one or two breads they put ground caraway in just to make everybody happy.)  But in the summer when I don't want to bake, they are a godsend!  I wish more people would try the good stuff.
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Offline Visor

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2019, 04:35:32 PM »


   Thanks for the enlightenment Rob, but I'm gonna continue to put caraway in my rye bread, cuz I like it that way and cuz I'm a heathen and really don't give a flip if what I consume conforms to any standard other than what tastes good to me ;). Interestingly, I've found that just about any treber flour that contains dark grains will give bread a definite rye flavor, caraway or no caraway.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant or anything.   I just so often see the comment, "I had a rye beer and couldn't taste rye," or "it didn't add the flavor I heard it would."  Most, unlike you obviously, have never tasted rye, though.  In American commercial rye breads, I can't detect any rye flavor.  They, even the dark ones (basically white bread and caramel color,) normally contain only enough rye flour to make it over the "and less than 2% of" line on the ingredient list so they can legally call it rye bread, and all the characteristic flavor comes from caraway or other ingredients.

So yeah, put whatever you want in your beer.  Or bread.  That's why we do it ourselves.  Just saying,  rye has a very unique flavor but it can be masked by the spice.  And rye itself is delicious  and worth discovering. 

And just to be fair I should probably bake a loaf of caraway-laden deli-style rye bread again soon.  Even that's way better homemade than store bought.

   Was that a rant ;)? To me rye, whether in beer or bread has a fairly subtle flavor, in bread it's easily overwhelmed by caraway or molasses, in beer it's hard for me to taste it unless it's at least 30% of the grain bill. What I do tend to notice even with lower percentages is the different texture/mouthfeel that rye brings to beer, I love it!
   A sour German bread? Sounds tasty, just don't ask me to drink one of them nasty sour beers with it.
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Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2019, 10:04:43 PM »
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Recipes/beer/display/rye-rye_imperial_ipa

This recipe is on my brew cue, thought I'd share.
First post, need time to adapt to this site.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 08:33:34 AM by Fire Rooster »

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2019, 10:18:36 PM »
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Recipes/beer/display/rye-rye_imperial_ipa

This recipe is on my brew cue, though I'd share.
First post, need time to adapt to this site.

Welcome. That’s a good looking recipe. I like the late Citra/Galaxy additions.


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Offline charlie

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2019, 12:36:37 AM »
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Recipes/beer/display/rye-rye_imperial_ipa

This recipe is on my brew cue, though I'd share.
First post, need time to adapt to this site.

6.25% rye malt + 6.25% caramel rye? I guess that's 12.5% rye total, but that's not a whole lot of rye!

What is caramel rye?

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Online Robert

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2019, 12:50:35 AM »




What is caramel rye?

Charlie

Briess makes this, a 60L crystal (they call all theirs caramel though they are really drum roasted crystal malts) made from rye.  They also have CaraCrystal Wheat at 55L.  I've also seen caramel rye and wheat listed by Weyermann,  and probably others are doing this.  I've wondered if any of them contribute distinctive characters or if, in a fully saccharified, glassy, crystal malt, sugar is sugar.  But it must be worth it because it's got to be a real pain to make a crystal malt from a naked grain.
Rob Stein
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Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2019, 08:31:15 AM »
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Recipes/beer/display/rye-rye_imperial_ipa

This recipe is on my brew cue, though I'd share.
First post, need time to adapt to this site.

6.25% rye malt + 6.25% caramel rye? I guess that's 12.5% rye total, but that's not a whole lot of rye!

What is caramel rye?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Caramel.htm

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CaramelRye.pdf

Notes from site: Use with Briess Rye Malt or Briess Rye Flakes for more rye flavor, and to complement the smooth and subtle yet complex flavor of Briess Caramel Rye Malt.  Flavor, Roasting of this grain develops touches of caramel and bread crust flavors that complement the spicy characteristic of rye. The result is a uniquely smooth and subtle yet complex rye malt with slight sweetness.


« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 08:54:01 AM by Fire Rooster »

Offline denny

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2019, 01:55:28 PM »




What is caramel rye?

Charlie

Briess makes this, a 60L crystal (they call all theirs caramel though they are really drum roasted crystal malts) made from rye.  They also have CaraCrystal Wheat at 55L.  I've also seen caramel rye and wheat listed by Weyermann,  and probably others are doing this.  I've wondered if any of them contribute distinctive characters or if, in a fully saccharified, glassy, crystal malt, sugar is sugar.  But it must be worth it because it's got to be a real pain to make a crystal malt from a naked grain.

Over the years I've used a lot of rye in a lot of different forms.  I found the caramel rye to be interesting, but not have a lot of rye character.   In addition, IMO the small amount of rye in that recipe won't be noticeable.
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Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2019, 06:56:24 AM »
"In addition, IMO the small amount of rye in that recipe won't be noticeable. "

Agreed:

"SUGGESTED USAGE LEVELS"

1-5% Adds touches of depth to lighter-flavor beers like Pilsner, Oktoberfest and Bock.

5-10% Adds complexity to malt-forward beers.

10-20% Adds an intriguing softness and slight rye-like character. Use in all rye-style beers for toast flavor and color as well as in Scottish Ales, Doppelbock, Dunkels, Stouts, Porters and other medium to dark ales and lagers