Author Topic: Lager or not  (Read 1330 times)

Offline Visor

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Lager or not
« on: August 16, 2019, 04:28:23 PM »
   I was recently looking at spec sheets on Mangrove Jacks website and discovered that the listed species for all of their "Lager" yeasts, specifically M-54 Cal. Common, M-76 Bavarian & M-84 Bohemian are Sacc. Cerevisia. Thinking this might just be a typo I emailed them and asked if the info was correct. The next day I received an email that just provided a link to the spec sheets I had already seen. Assuming that perhaps my previous query hadn't been clear enough I emailed again specifically asking if their Lager yeasts were S. Cerevisia or S. Pastorianus - twice. That was almost a week ago and they have yet to respond to either of my follow up emails.
   I apologize if this has been addressed in this forum previously, but does anyone out there have any insight into this apparent misclassification?
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Offline denny

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2019, 04:39:43 PM »
I don't think it's a misclassification.  The Yeas66 Genome Project has found more than a few "lager" yeasts that are cerevisiae
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2019, 04:50:41 PM »
I'm willing to bet that M76 Bavarian Lager is truly identical (repackaged!) Fermentis SafLager W-34/70.  Mangrove Jack's doesn't actually farm any yeast at all.  They just buy yeast from others then slap their own label on it.  That's part of the reason they don't identify anything as pastorianus, and why they might take a long time to respond to questions, or not even respond at all... because they likely don't even know very much about yeast at all!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 04:52:14 PM by dmtaylor »
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Offline Robert

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2019, 04:52:02 PM »
I'm sure they're just being sloppy.  M76 is W34/70.  Don't recall what M84 is offhand (I think S23?) but I know both are pastorianus.  MJ doesn't do any manufacturing or banking, they just buy bulk from Lallemand, Fermentis and Mauribrew and repackage.  They probably don't do any lab work or have any real idea what they're repackaging.

It is true that around 30% of yeasts commercially used for lagers are cerevisiae, and conversely a smaller but significant number of "ale" yeasts are pastorianus.   But not the case here.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2019, 05:45:34 PM »
Interesting - I wonder if anyone on this forum can give some insight into the processing of the homebrewer-oriented packaging by any of the yeast suppliers.  I have had some concern about the non-lab yeast sellers (marketers, basically) and the increased likelihood of contamination in handling by non-lab conditions.  Maybe I am tilting at windmills, but with re-pitching, I want to start the first inoculation of wort at a point that is relatively lab level clean, whenever possible.
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Offline denny

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2019, 06:07:19 PM »
Interesting - I wonder if anyone on this forum can give some insight into the processing of the homebrewer-oriented packaging by any of the yeast suppliers.  I have had some concern about the non-lab yeast sellers (marketers, basically) and the increased likelihood of contamination in handling by non-lab conditions.  Maybe I am tilting at windmills, but with re-pitching, I want to start the first inoculation of wort at a point that is relatively lab level clean, whenever possible.

I think it's entirely likely that the yeast is packaged by the original producer rather than the reseller.  That makes much more sense than the reseller having to have their own packaging line.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2019, 06:16:38 PM »
Interesting - I wonder if anyone on this forum can give some insight into the processing of the homebrewer-oriented packaging by any of the yeast suppliers.  I have had some concern about the non-lab yeast sellers (marketers, basically) and the increased likelihood of contamination in handling by non-lab conditions.  Maybe I am tilting at windmills, but with re-pitching, I want to start the first inoculation of wort at a point that is relatively lab level clean, whenever possible.

I think it's entirely likely that the yeast is packaged by the original producer rather than the reseller.  That makes much more sense than the reseller having to have their own packaging line.

Somewhere I saw a picture posted of the label (I've never used MJ because LHBS stocks plenty of others) that said something like "packed in the UK from imported ingredients."  Kinda worries me about manufacturer's packages being opened and repacked, hopefully, aseptically.  But I've never heard of anyone on the forums having a problem with contamination, at least.
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Offline BrewBama

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Lager or not
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 07:20:15 PM »
I also noticed each of the MJ strains are classed as Ale yeasts.

I posted a photo of the package of Cali Common on HBT. The package does plainly state it is “Packed in the U.K. from Imported and Local Ingredients“.  I emailed Bevie to ask if they repack other mfr yeasts and they said “We are producing a wide range of yeast products from a variety of locations. We aren’t able to discuss production methods and raw material sources or manufacturing sites publicly though.
My apologies that we are unable to assist you further.”

If they rebrand Mauri yeast which I cannot otherwise get here great. But if they’re repacking something I can already get ...well... then poot.

If you go to the Bevie website they say they have food industry repack lines in Chesire. Bevie also has Grainfather in their brand stable.

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 07:28:38 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2019, 07:53:22 PM »
If they rebrand Mauri yeast which I cannot otherwise get here great. But if they’re repacking something I can already get ...well... then poot.
Except MJ is significantly cheaper. Especially for lager yeasts.

Offline Robert

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 08:35:53 PM »
If they rebrand Mauri yeast which I cannot otherwise get here great. But if they’re repacking something I can already get ...well... then poot.
Except MJ is significantly cheaper. Especially for lager yeasts.
Maybe cheap because they're buying other people's stock that they'd just have to pull because it's out of date?  Which if true still might not be a bad gamble for the price, since dry yeast is probably viable long after its date.  Practically immortal if stored carefully.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 10:03:15 PM »
If they rebrand Mauri yeast which I cannot otherwise get here great. But if they’re repacking something I can already get ...well... then poot.
Except MJ is significantly cheaper. Especially for lager yeasts.
Maybe cheap because they're buying other people's stock that they'd just have to pull because it's out of date?  Which if true still might not be a bad gamble for the price, since dry yeast is probably viable long after its date.  Practically immortal if stored carefully.

That is a legitimate concern of mine.  I haven't purchased any Mangrove Jack's yeast yet, and really won't unless it's cheap as dirt AND is a batch where I don't really care about how it turns out, in the low risk but possible chance that it might not.
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 10:46:28 PM »
If they rebrand Mauri yeast which I cannot otherwise get here great. But if they’re repacking something I can already get ...well... then poot.
Except MJ is significantly cheaper. Especially for lager yeasts.
Maybe cheap because they're buying other people's stock that they'd just have to pull because it's out of date?  Which if true still might not be a bad gamble for the price, since dry yeast is probably viable long after its date.  Practically immortal if stored carefully.

That is a legitimate concern of mine.  I haven't purchased any Mangrove Jack's yeast yet, and really won't unless it's cheap as dirt AND is a batch where I don't really care about how it turns out, in the low risk but possible chance that it might not.
They put best by dates on the package just like everyone else.

This one says best by 11/2020. I doubt they make that up.


I don’t think they tear open Lallemand sachets and pour them into MJ sachets. I am sure it is done in bulk by a sanitized machine in a clean room. I have used MJ many times and never had a problem. I have bought a few pints with the savings.

Offline BrewBama

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Lager or not
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2019, 11:06:37 PM »
I blamed MJ yeast for a jacked up batch last Summer but later discovered the cleaning crew overlooked a mangled o-ring and underlying spooge.  I have to stay on top of those guys.  :)

I’ve not had any other issues with their product. In fact I am sipping a very nice pint fermented with their West Coast Ale strain now.

If the MJ Bavarian lager strain is W34/70 then I’d rather just buy it from the crazy lady at the health food store. Saves shipping and helps a local business.

But if the California Lager is Mauri lager that I can’t get anywhere else and that’s what I wanted to use I could justify paying shipping. If their Cali Common is discovered to be genetically S-189 or something I’d just buy the S-189.

I can image a large container of yeast fed into a machine that dispenses, weighs, and seals the sachet.  Note: the package says “Packed in a protective environment”
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 11:08:18 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline Iliff Ave Brewhouse

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2019, 01:13:29 AM »
Interesting. I just pitched one sachet each of s-189 and m76 into a German Pilsner. I had no idea that M76 is the same as 34/70 and always thought I got more character and full flavor from m76. If they are the same I will continue to use m76 based on cost alone. S-189 is the best dry lager yeast I have used so am curious what the sub would be. 

I really liked m84 the couple times I used it but it just didn’t attenuate enough for my brewing goals
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 01:17:34 AM by Iliff Ave Brewhouse »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Lager or not
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2019, 03:15:32 AM »
S-189 is the best dry lager yeast I have used so am curious what the sub would be. 

There is no dried substitute that I know of, Mangrove or otherwise.  The only equivalent I'm aware of is WLP885 Zurich Lager.
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