Author Topic: PH storage solution recipe  (Read 524 times)

Offline BrewBama

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2673
PH storage solution recipe
« on: August 28, 2019, 08:11:16 PM »
I’ve read pH storage solution is simply 100 ml 4.0 buffer solution + either 1 g or 10 g KCL depending on the source. I get conflicting information. Does anyone make their own storage solution?  If so what’s your recipe? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3950
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2019, 08:30:39 PM »
Storage solution is cheap, I get 500 mL bottles from Hanna.  It's cheaper than the buffers volume for volume.   I think buying ready made would be the way to go if it does involve buffers.  But I thought it was just a saturated solution of some salt, maybe the KCl?  I'm sure Martin will set us straight.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3703
    • Manty Malters - Meet the Malters! - Dave Taylor
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2019, 12:42:54 AM »
Straight vinegar.  Done.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3950
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2019, 12:45:33 AM »
Straight vinegar.  Done.
Seriously?  I understood that it was meant to be more or less identical to the solution inside the bulb to the end of maintaining an equilibrium.   And it ain't vinegar in there.


EDIT

SDS.  8 pages tell ya nothin'.  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AzhrRqC3aUiMYeCP25ZwC97YEAfhfaeQ/view?usp=drivesdk


(Well it tells you pH is 5-7.)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 12:57:22 AM by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3703
    • Manty Malters - Meet the Malters! - Dave Taylor
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2019, 12:56:05 AM »
Straight vinegar.  Done.
Seriously?

Yeah.

SDS.  8 pages tell ya nothin'.

Yeah.  Typical SDS.  If it's vinegar, they wouldn't want you to know that because they can charge a whole lot more for their super fancy Hanna name-brand vinegar.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 12:59:19 AM by dmtaylor »
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3950
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2019, 12:58:58 AM »
Well, Dave, one thing I've come to realize is that you are one of the kings of homebrew hacks.  Makes me pay serious attention.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3703
    • Manty Malters - Meet the Malters! - Dave Taylor
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2019, 01:00:24 AM »
Well, Dave, one thing I've come to realize is that you are one of the kings of homebrew hacks.  Makes me pay serious attention.

I'm a king of nothing.  I just try to pay attention to what matters, and not pay attention to what doesn't matter.  Or hell, you can refer to me as "Lord Idiot the Lazy" if you like.  :)
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3950
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2019, 01:18:08 AM »
Well, Dave, one thing I've come to realize is that you are one of the kings of homebrew hacks.  Makes me pay serious attention.

I'm a king of nothing.  I just try to pay attention to what matters, and not pay attention to what doesn't matter.  Or hell, you can refer to me as "Lord Idiot the Lazy" if you like.  :)
Well, Lord Idiot the Lazy it is then; hey, that's LOL!  For the more formal approach, or unnecessary approach as it may be, this

https://www.coleparmer.com/tech-article/ph-electrode-care

says storage solution is 4M KCl, but 4.0 buffer may be substituted if that's unavailable.  There's the basis of BrewBama's recipe, I guess.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3703
    • Manty Malters - Meet the Malters! - Dave Taylor
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2019, 01:29:13 AM »
I figure, KCl is salt, and vinegar is sort of like a salt, but just an uglier molecular formula of CH3COOH.  And the pH is about right.  Good enough for me.  And I even dunk it into the mash at 150 F and the probe hasn't died yet.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Richard

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2019, 02:33:25 AM »
I figure, KCl is salt, and vinegar is sort of like a salt, but just an uglier molecular formula of CH3COOH.  And the pH is about right.  Good enough for me.  And I even dunk it into the mash at 150 F and the probe hasn't died yet.
I don't think the pH of vinegar is "about right" compared to pH 4.0 buffer solution. I use white vinegar at pH 2.50 as a rough indicator of whether I need to calibrate my pH meter. If it reads 2.50 on the nose I will skip calibration, if it reads much different I will do the calibration with 4.0 pH and 7.0 pH solutions. To me 2.50 and 4.0 are very different, not about the same.
Original Gravity - that would be Newton's

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3950
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2019, 02:55:35 AM »
Can anyone explain the intended function of the storage solution?  I have it on good authority that a) it is intended to be identical to the reference solution within the bulb, which by implication is 4M KCl, maintaining a stable (I presume that means osmotically) condition, and that b) 4.0 buffer is a viable substitute.   The two can't possibly, as it appears to this layman,  be consistent.   Little help?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3703
    • Manty Malters - Meet the Malters! - Dave Taylor
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2019, 03:52:13 AM »
I figure, KCl is salt, and vinegar is sort of like a salt, but just an uglier molecular formula of CH3COOH.  And the pH is about right.  Good enough for me.  And I even dunk it into the mash at 150 F and the probe hasn't died yet.
I don't think the pH of vinegar is "about right" compared to pH 4.0 buffer solution. I use white vinegar at pH 2.50 as a rough indicator of whether I need to calibrate my pH meter. If it reads 2.50 on the nose I will skip calibration, if it reads much different I will do the calibration with 4.0 pH and 7.0 pH solutions. To me 2.50 and 4.0 are very different, not about the same.

I use homemade vinegar at 3.9.  So... YMMV.

As for why 4.0 buffer or KCl and the mechanisms involved... sorry, Robert, I don't know why.  It's magic!?!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 03:53:52 AM by dmtaylor »
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline goose

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2019, 01:39:44 PM »
Can anyone explain the intended function of the storage solution?  I have it on good authority that a) it is intended to be identical to the reference solution within the bulb, which by implication is 4M KCl, maintaining a stable (I presume that means osmotically) condition, and that b) 4.0 buffer is a viable substitute.   The two can't possibly, as it appears to this layman,  be consistent.   Little help?

Rob, I just looked up the description for the Oakton pH electrode storage solution that the Grape sells.  It says:

"4 oz bottle of Oakton pH electrode storage solution. Maintains a gel layer on the pH electrode bulb and minimizes clogging."

I know that the solution contains Potassium chloride (KCl) since I get deposits of the salt on the outside of the vial that the electrode is stored in from evaporation.  With all due respect to Dave (a.k.a. LOL  ;D), I am not sure that I would want to store my electrode in a straight weak acid (your homemade vinegar, or plain 4.0 buffer for that matter), because I would be afraid of the acid contaminating the osmotic characteristics of the bulb, but that is me.  A bottle of the Oakton stuff lasts me about a year and I feel the 13 bucks I spend on it gives me some piece of mind that I am following the manufacturer's recommendations and thirteen bucks is a lot cheaper than a new electrode.  That said, I am sure you might be able to find the storage solution cheaper online.
Goose Steingass
Wooster, OH
Society of Akron Area Zymurgists (SAAZ)
Wayne County Brew Club
Mansfield Brew Club
BJCP Certified
AHA Governing Committee Member

Offline BrewBama

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2673
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2019, 02:06:32 PM »
Goose, I looked up the MSDS for your storage solution. It says:

Component: Potassium Chloride
Weight: 20-30%

*The exact percentage (concentration) of composition has been withheld as a trade secret.
 
It also says the pH range is 6.3-6.9.  So... who knows.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3950
Re: PH storage solution recipe
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2019, 02:23:34 PM »
Goose, I looked up the MSDS for your storage solution. It says:

Component: Potassium Chloride
Weight: 20-30%

*The exact percentage (concentration) of composition has been withheld as a trade secret.
 
It also says the pH range is 6.3-6.9.  So... who knows.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
So it looks like the most generally preferred storage solution is in fact a saturated solution of potassium chloride, based on the various sources we've looked up.  The Hanna SDS gives pH 5-7, and Goose's is near 7.  4.0 buffer is sometimes recommended in a pinch.  I wonder if your source suggesting combining KCl with 4.0 buffer was just conflating the two pieces of advice? 

I still favor buying the cheap 500 mL bottle of storage solution.   I only buy buffers in single use sachets,  because once opened the shelf life is very short, far shorter than it would take me to use even the smallest bottle even if doing double duty, and once a portion has been used it can't be reused for calibration; so I don't see buying that in bulk for use in any way for storage purposes.

EDIT

Good ol' Wikipedia and links have helped elucidate some of this.  KCl is in fact the reference solution in the electrode.  Makes sense to use it as the storage solution.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH_meter
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 02:57:16 PM by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.