Author Topic: SNS starter in carboy  (Read 714 times)

Offline Steve Ruch

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SNS starter in carboy
« on: September 03, 2019, 05:06:32 PM »
Any reason that I couldn't make a SNS starter in the carboy and just rack the wort on top of it?
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Online ynotbrusum

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2019, 06:03:47 PM »
As long as you can shake it enough to make the wort into almost all foam, you should be ok.  A solid bung secured in some way should work.  Hold on tight!
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2019, 06:04:54 PM »
Any reason that I couldn't make a SNS starter in the carboy and just rack the wort on top of it?
Your supposed to shake it like it owes you money (according to Mark V.). That might not be a good idea with a glass carboy. 

Maybe you could shake it in another vessel and then pour it into the carboy for its fermentation.

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2019, 06:20:56 PM »
Or perhaps a paddle type aerator on a drill at high speed- the idea was a vessel about four times the volume of the starter.  A five gallon carboy limits that in a way (in terms of depth of the solution), but otherwise it meets the basic idea.
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Offline Steve Ruch

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2019, 10:55:31 PM »
Any reason that I couldn't make a SNS starter in the carboy and just rack the wort on top of it?
Your supposed to shake it like it owes you money (according to Mark V.). That might not be a good idea with a glass carboy. 

Maybe you could shake it in another vessel and then pour it into the carboy for its fermentation.
It would be in a 2.8 gallon glass, or 5 gallon plastic.
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with hairy old women

Offline Carson B

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 03:20:47 AM »
I've seen people plug the carboy, then roll it back and forth on the floor for 5-10 minutes. Basically shaking, just more manageable with a 5-gallon carboy

Offline Robert

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 03:52:21 AM »
I've seen people plug the carboy, then roll it back and forth on the floor for 5-10 minutes. Basically shaking, just more manageable with a 5-gallon carboy
Whatever makes a lot of foam.  Foam means oxygen will be readily diffused into the wort with a huge surface area to volume ratio.  Doesn't matter how you get it foamy. In fact rocking and rolling the carboy long enough making the wort repeatedly sheet on the walls would eventually get the same result as raising foam.
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Offline AzBruin

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2019, 05:28:23 AM »
Or perhaps a paddle type aerator on a drill at high speed- the idea was a vessel about four times the volume of the starter.  A five gallon carboy limits that in a way (in terms of depth of the solution), but otherwise it meets the basic idea.

Well, the idea of an SNS starter is aeration, and no damage to the yeast cells. I think a paddle type aerator would be worse than a stir plate as far as yeast cell damage goes.

Online ynotbrusum

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2019, 11:35:39 AM »
Or perhaps a paddle type aerator on a drill at high speed- the idea was a vessel about four times the volume of the starter.  A five gallon carboy limits that in a way (in terms of depth of the solution), but otherwise it meets the basic idea.

Well, the idea of an SNS starter is aeration, and no damage to the yeast cells. I think a paddle type aerator would be worse than a stir plate as far as yeast cell damage goes.


Unless, of course you add the yeast to the shaken solution 😉
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Offline Robert

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2019, 01:18:47 PM »


Or perhaps a paddle type aerator on a drill at high speed- the idea was a vessel about four times the volume of the starter.  A five gallon carboy limits that in a way (in terms of depth of the solution), but otherwise it meets the basic idea.

Well, the idea of an SNS starter is aeration, and no damage to the yeast cells. I think a paddle type aerator would be worse than a stir plate as far as yeast cell damage goes.

The basic problem with "shaken, not stirred" being that the whole idea stems from an unfounded assumption.   There's no evidence for the fundamental objection to stir plates.   There is an abundance of evidence that they are utterly incapable of producing enough shear to come close to damaging yeast.  So the paddle probably wouldn't either.  But ynotbrusum has the obvious solution to be sure.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline denny

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2019, 02:10:58 PM »
I've seen people plug the carboy, then roll it back and forth on the floor for 5-10 minutes. Basically shaking, just more manageable with a 5-gallon carboy

Don't do that.  Ask me how I know....
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Offline denny

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2019, 02:13:44 PM »


Or perhaps a paddle type aerator on a drill at high speed- the idea was a vessel about four times the volume of the starter.  A five gallon carboy limits that in a way (in terms of depth of the solution), but otherwise it meets the basic idea.

Well, the idea of an SNS starter is aeration, and no damage to the yeast cells. I think a paddle type aerator would be worse than a stir plate as far as yeast cell damage goes.

The basic problem with "shaken, not stirred" being that the whole idea stems from an unfounded assumption.   There's no evidence for the fundamental objection to stir plates.   There is an abundance of evidence that they are utterly incapable of producing enough shear to come close to damaging yeast.  So the paddle probably wouldn't either.  But ynotbrusum has the obvious solution to be sure.

Actually, I believe Mark was able to cite damage.   How much damage and how much difference it makes to us is another matter.  And his point about yeast manufacturers note using them is well taken.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Robert

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2019, 02:43:15 PM »
Just saying SNS is, on one level, something of a solution in search of a problem.  That is, WRT significant damage outweighing the benefits of continuous gas exchange.  OTOH if the problem is how to get a starter oxygenated, of course it's a great, "cheap 'n' easy" solution.  Not as effective as pure O2 up front, which in turn is not as effective as continuous stirring or shaking, but surely provides as much oxygen as air can provide at the most critical time.   On that front, addressing Steve's original question, I really like the paint stirrer idea as an easy, and safe, way of aerating a starter in a carboy.  I wouldn't want to shake one like it owed me money.

 Back when, before I had an O2 stone or a stir plate, I used to do starters in a jug and shake them until foamy.  Then I'd give it a minute or so of swirling and agitation every hour for the first few hours.  That would get some CO2 out and more O2 in, providing some of the benefit of continuous motion on a stir plate or shaker table.   Do you ever add that to your SNS routine,  Denny?  Or is it just start it up and let it go?
Rob Stein
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Offline denny

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2019, 03:46:25 PM »
Nope, I do give it a shake whenever I notice it when I walk by.  Don't know how much good it really does.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Online ynotbrusum

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Re: SNS starter in carboy
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2019, 05:26:42 PM »
FWIW, I have tried every suggested approach, but I settled on putting a quart or so of wort in a gallon apple juice jug, shaking the snot out of it, flaming the jug opening, adding the liquid yeast and shaking it again.  It is amazing how quickly the yeast is ready to be added to cooled wort when I finish brewing.  As few as 4-5 hours typically, but rarely more than 8 hours to a ready state.

Of course, harvesting and repitching freshly harvested yeast is the best way to go IMHO.
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