Author Topic: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?  (Read 554 times)

Offline brian_welch

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2019, 12:47:37 PM »
There is a three page "sponsored content"/scientific article from Fermentis about the new Easy to Use/E2U dry yeast in the September 2019 issue Brew Your Own magazine.

They don't really talk about starters, but rather pitching directly vs. rehydrating the yeast in water vs. rehydrating the yeast in wort (which could be a starter, I guess).  If you do make a starter, I wouldn't follow the shaken not stirred method, based on this warning (emphasis theirs):

"there is no need to oxygenate the wort when using E2U yeast by Fermentis (due to our production process) and DO NOT shake the flask extremely vigorously when you are rehydrating the yeasts."
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Offline smkranz

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2019, 02:06:42 PM »
If you do make a starter, I wouldn't follow the shaken not stirred method, based on this warning (emphasis theirs):

"there is no need to oxygenate the wort when using E2U yeast by Fermentis (due to our production process) and DO NOT shake the flask extremely vigorously when you are rehydrating the yeasts."

Yup, this is consistent with what we were told by the Fermentis rep, the reason being that vigorous shaking or aeration during rehydration causes physical damage to the yeast cells, reducing overall viability of the pitch.
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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2019, 02:34:56 PM »
Both Fermentis and Lallemand now say no starter, no rehydration.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2019, 04:37:01 PM »
Both Fermentis and Lallemand now say no starter, no rehydration.
I've seen elsewhere that Lallemand is now again recommending in presentations not to do starters, but to rehydrate.  Yet papers from 20+ years ago contradicted this.  Very confusing.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2019, 04:42:51 PM »
From the Fermentis app I installed yesterday:




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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2019, 05:29:22 PM »
Both Fermentis and Lallemand now say no starter, no rehydration.
I've seen elsewhere that Lallemand is now again recommending in presentations not to do starters, but to rehydrate.  Yet papers from 20+ years ago contradicted this.  Very confusing.

I spoke wituu a biologist at Lallemand a few weeks ago. He said he didn't know why they ever told people to rehydrate.  I spent some time with Lallemand's North American sales mgr. about a week ago and he said the same thing.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2019, 06:11:49 PM »
Screenshot of a posting elsewhere of a slide from a very recent ASBC/MBAA presentation.  In case it's illegible, it says best practice is rehydration in either sterile, salt-adjusted brewing water or diluted (2°-5°P) wort to avoid cytolytic shock.   Sounds like ancient history, doesn't it?

Meanwhile, studies have long shown that no matter how you pitch, the fermentation ends up at the same goal at the same time.  Wonder if it's not the same principle as vitality starters.  Sure you kill some yeast, but what's left is so dang healthy, who cares?  I've always worried that rehydration  could be counterproductive, because the delay involved could allow the dry yeast to consume all those wonderful reserves the production process endows them with before they get into the wort, disrupting their metabolism.
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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2019, 06:30:04 PM »
That's always been my theory about rehydrating dry yeast...so what if some dies since you have so much to sort with.  It's never failed me.
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Offline Descardeci

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2019, 05:48:21 PM »
No starter is necessary.  Just rehydrate, or direct pitch.  I attended a Fermentis presentation at our LHBS and came away with this presentation.  Check out page 24 for a comparison of pitching into various media, including rehydrating in water or wort.  My results by direct pitching into big beers have been great.  Hope the link works:

Link works, thanks for sharing.  Looks like this presentation is changing slightly over time (some new to me information in the presentation you provided).  Wish Fermentis would put this at their web site so it would be easier for everyone to share a common base of knowledge. 

When I started brewing (much earlier in this decade), the kits I used recommended pitching dry.  I got good results so I kept pitching dry. I would try rehydrating occasionally, but never noticed a difference.  So it's good to see the data matches my results.  About a year ago, the "way back machine / internet archives" had US-56 and S-04 product information sheets from around 2012.  Looks like there was a sound basis for kits suggesting pitching dry. 

So I remain curious about why and when people choose to make starters with dry yeast.  Sometimes it's a cost factor.   Sometimes it's shipping (dry yeast appears to be much less sensitive to heat/cold during shipping).  There have been various discussions around flavor differences in the 0th (dry) generation of the yeast when compared to the later generations.   A recent (June 2019) HomeBrewTalk discussion ("Can we address the dry yeast yeast starter concept again?") may also be an interesting read.

I'm looking at brewing a couple of big beers (small batches) side by side this fall.  So I'm definitely interested in any insights that people have when using starters with dry yeast.

I never had a problem with pitching dry, but have in mind that i need did a big beer, 1060 or higher OG, and also that when pitching dry we gonna lose some yeast, I didnt build a starter, and here why, those big beer is a small batches, so put 1 liter or 1.5 liter starter would get a lot of my production, that is 2.5 gallon, so just spent a little more on 2 dry yeast, and I rehydrated the yeast, fermentation already took off, after complete gonna lagering those 2 for 1 month.

Offline Descardeci

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2019, 05:51:07 PM »
That's always been my theory about rehydrating dry yeast...so what if some dies since you have so much to sort with.  It's never failed me.

Denny I agree with you, for me this always work, but what happen when you are build a big beer? I rehydrated the BE 256, 1 package either for 2,5 gallons, for those 2 big beers I brew, but just a thing like better safe than sorry, but would make a difference?

Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2019, 06:05:56 PM »
That's always been my theory about rehydrating dry yeast...so what if some dies since you have so much to sort with.  It's never failed me.

Denny I agree with you, for me this always work, but what happen when you are build a big beer? I rehydrated the BE 256, 1 package either for 2,5 gallons, for those 2 big beers I brew, but just a thing like better safe than sorry, but would make a difference?

I frequently pitch a sin gel pack without rehydrating in beers up to 1.075.  Might be able to go a bit higher OG, but I haven't tried.
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Offline BrewBama

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Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2019, 12:42:39 PM »
From the Fermentis app I installed yesterday:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In a way, given the illustration above, Fermentis is directing rehydration regardless of method used. Either sprinkle the yeast in wort or water, wait 15 minutes (aka rehydrate), and add more wort to stir or stir yourself and pitch.

I frequently pitch a sin gel pack without rehydrating in beers up to 1.075.  Might be able to go a bit higher OG, but I haven't tried.

In a presentation at NHC, Fermentis recommended 1g per 1L wort.  I don’t recall the OG but I think it was much more pedestrian.


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« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 01:42:41 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline Robert

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2019, 01:46:29 PM »
From the Fermentis app I installed yesterday:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In a way, given the illustration above, Fermentis is directing rehydration regardless of method used. Either sprinkle the yeast in wort or water, wait 15 minutes (aka rehydrate), and add more wort to stir or stir yourself and pitch.

I frequently pitch a sin gel pack without rehydrating in beers up to 1.075.  Might be able to go a bit higher OG, but I haven't tried.

In a presentation at NHC, Fermentis recommended 1g per 1L wort.  I don’t recall the OG but I think it was much more pedestrian.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Those recommendations are specifically for pitching bricks into a commercial fermentation.  I think it is to ensure that the yeast gets evenly distributed in the wort.  (Elsewhere they even suggest aeration from the bottom of the cone as a means to ensure even mixing, although they are clear that aeration per se is unnecessary.)  I think that's maybe less of a problem on the homebrew scale, where it's easy to sprinkle the yeast evenly over the whole surface and let it sink on its own.  They really don't recommend an actual hydration step in the traditional sense, as they say they add a surfactant coating (sorbitan monostearate) before drying, which limits the rate at which liquid is admitted to the cell, preventing osmotic shock.  So they say.  Neither of the processes described in that illustration matches the lengthy old process of rehydration in warm water and gradual attemperation with aliquots of wort.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2019, 02:54:51 PM »
You guys are repeating old information.  Fermentis no longer recommends rehydrating for homebrewers.  Same for Lallemand.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2019, 03:15:18 PM »
Maybe ...but as of this AM on their app under ‘how to pitch E2U’ I get that graphic. Maybe there’s a lag in the web guys vs the tech guys.


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“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL