Author Topic: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?  (Read 598 times)

Offline Descardeci

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Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« on: September 11, 2019, 12:32:59 PM »
Hey folks, how you guys are?
What you been brewing?
So folks, I’m doing my first big beer, only 2,5 gallon each, next week, a Belgian dark strong ale and a clone from Midas touch with some changes, with 1,091 and 1,088, but I’m think doing a starter with a abbey 256 fermentis, a starter of 1,5 L (0.4 gallon), then pour 1l (0.26 gallon) in one and give the another 0,5 L (0.16 gallon)  then propagation to 1 L (0.26 gallon) then pour in the other batch. I’m study about and I Know some people prefer buy 2 pack of the same yeast, but I’m curious about doing the propagation. Anyone try this already?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 01:08:47 PM by Descardeci »

Offline Bob357

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2019, 02:26:04 PM »
Overbuilding starters has been a well used technique for several years now. Making starters with dry yeast isn't all that popular, but I've been doing it for some time with great results.

I don't assume 200B cells per packet, but instead figure 10B per gram. This is the number I enter into the starter tool.  Although it may not be necessary, I always rehydrate first. After rehydrating I treat the yeast just as I would liquid yeast. 
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Offline Kevin

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2019, 03:17:36 PM »
My best starters for big beers are a smaller beer. Make a smaller OG beer around 1.040 - 1.045 (maybe up to 1.050) and the day you are ready to rack or bottle this one, brew your big beer and put it right on top of the small beers yeast cake.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 03:05:47 PM by Kevin »
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Offline Todd H.

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2019, 03:52:10 PM »
I don't assume 200B cells per packet, but instead figure 10B per gram. This is the number I enter into the starter tool.  Although it may not be necessary, I always rehydrate first. After rehydrating I treat the yeast just as I would liquid yeast.

Last year I counted S-23 and 34/70 out of curiosity.  S-23 came in at 24b/gram and 34/70 at 21b/gram.  Obviously that's those packets of those strains, but it's possible yours might have more than 10b/gram.  Still, if making a starter makes good beer and you don't mind doing it, who cares what your initial cell count is.

Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2019, 04:23:56 PM »
I have come to the point where I don't care nearly as much about cell count as yeast health.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2019, 07:30:07 PM »
I have come to the point where I don't care nearly as much about cell count as yeast health.

Yes.  The nuclear bomb analogy by Mark V. comes to mind... if it’s vital and active, the cell numbers shouldn’t mean much.  So no need to pitch huge starters, just use highly active ones.
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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2019, 08:42:59 PM »
I have come to the point where I don't care nearly as much about cell count as yeast health.

Yes.  The nuclear bomb analogy by Mark V. comes to mind... if it’s vital and active, the cell numbers shouldn’t mean much.  So no need to pitch huge starters, just use highly active ones.

Which is exactly what I've been doing the last few years.  AAMOF, when I described the method to Chris White, he said "that's great!  Homebrewers are too hung up on numbers"
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Descardeci

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2019, 02:34:59 PM »
I have come to the point where I don't care nearly as much about cell count as yeast health.

Yes.  The nuclear bomb analogy by Mark V. comes to mind... if it’s vital and active, the cell numbers shouldn’t mean much.  So no need to pitch huge starters, just use highly active ones.

First of all thanks all for the answers, and now which size of starter would recommend to those bier? I’m think 0,26 to 0,4 gallon, but this will reduce my OG of the beer?

Offline Kevin

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 03:10:17 PM »
I have come to the point where I don't care nearly as much about cell count as yeast health.

Yes.  The nuclear bomb analogy by Mark V. comes to mind... if it’s vital and active, the cell numbers shouldn’t mean much.  So no need to pitch huge starters, just use highly active ones.

First of all thanks all for the answers, and now which size of starter would recommend to those bier? I’m think 0,26 to 0,4 gallon, but this will reduce my OG of the beer?

Well, what Denny is talking about is the Shaken Not Stirred method which is typically one quart of starter medium in a one gallon container. I would be curious to hear from Denny his thoughts on the size of a SNS starter when making a high gravity beer... 1.080 and up.
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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 03:49:52 PM »
I have come to the point where I don't care nearly as much about cell count as yeast health.

Yes.  The nuclear bomb analogy by Mark V. comes to mind... if it’s vital and active, the cell numbers shouldn’t mean much.  So no need to pitch huge starters, just use highly active ones.

First of all thanks all for the answers, and now which size of starter would recommend to those bier? I’m think 0,26 to 0,4 gallon, but this will reduce my OG of the beer?

Well, what Denny is talking about is the Shaken Not Stirred method which is typically one quart of starter medium in a one gallon container. I would be curious to hear from Denny his thoughts on the size of a SNS starter when making a high gravity beer... 1.080 and up.

In that case, I make a lower gravity beer first and then use the slurry.  But for a small 5 gal.batch, I think the usual SNS method would work.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Steve Ruch

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 06:12:31 PM »
I have come to the point where I don't care nearly as much about cell count as yeast health.

Yes.  The nuclear bomb analogy by Mark V. comes to mind... if it’s vital and active, the cell numbers shouldn’t mean much.  So no need to pitch huge starters, just use highly active ones.

First of all thanks all for the answers, and now which size of starter would recommend to those bier? I’m think 0,26 to 0,4 gallon, but this will reduce my OG of the beer?

Well, what Denny is talking about is the Shaken Not Stirred method which is typically one quart of starter medium in a one gallon container. I would be curious to hear from Denny his thoughts on the size of a SNS starter when making a high gravity beer... 1.080 and up.

In that case, I make a lower gravity beer first and then use the slurry.  But for a small 5 gal.batch, I think the usual SNS method would work.
How about for a 2.5-3 gallon batch of 1.080-1.100? Or higher?
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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2019, 06:42:15 PM »
I have come to the point where I don't care nearly as much about cell count as yeast health.

Yes.  The nuclear bomb analogy by Mark V. comes to mind... if it’s vital and active, the cell numbers shouldn’t mean much.  So no need to pitch huge starters, just use highly active ones.

First of all thanks all for the answers, and now which size of starter would recommend to those bier? I’m think 0,26 to 0,4 gallon, but this will reduce my OG of the beer?

Well, what Denny is talking about is the Shaken Not Stirred method which is typically one quart of starter medium in a one gallon container. I would be curious to hear from Denny his thoughts on the size of a SNS starter when making a high gravity beer... 1.080 and up.

In that case, I make a lower gravity beer first and then use the slurry.  But for a small 5 gal.batch, I think the usual SNS method would work.
How about for a 2.5-3 gallon batch of 1.080-1.100? Or higher?

I think I'd go for the standard SNS.  Higher than 1.100...who knows.  I don't think I'd do that without slurry.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline BrewnWKopperKat

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 11:03:10 PM »
Making starters with dry yeast isn't all that popular, but I've been doing it for some time with great results.

Do you make starters with dry yeast for all your batches or just for "special situations" (for example, high gravity wort)? 

Offline smkranz

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2019, 12:29:18 AM »
No starter is necessary.  Just rehydrate, or direct pitch.  I attended a Fermentis presentation at our LHBS and came away with this presentation.  Check out page 24 for a comparison of pitching into various media, including rehydrating in water or wort.  My results by direct pitching into big beers have been great.  Hope the link works:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yYtrJABYxZ2XvKEnMj_OfShpl8OyPNHM/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 12:34:01 AM by smkranz »
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Offline BrewnWKopperKat

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Re: Dry yeast split, a starter would work?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2019, 10:19:30 AM »
No starter is necessary.  Just rehydrate, or direct pitch.  I attended a Fermentis presentation at our LHBS and came away with this presentation.  Check out page 24 for a comparison of pitching into various media, including rehydrating in water or wort.  My results by direct pitching into big beers have been great.  Hope the link works:

Link works, thanks for sharing.  Looks like this presentation is changing slightly over time (some new to me information in the presentation you provided).  Wish Fermentis would put this at their web site so it would be easier for everyone to share a common base of knowledge. 

When I started brewing (much earlier in this decade), the kits I used recommended pitching dry.  I got good results so I kept pitching dry. I would try rehydrating occasionally, but never noticed a difference.  So it's good to see the data matches my results.  About a year ago, the "way back machine / internet archives" had US-56 and S-04 product information sheets from around 2012.  Looks like there was a sound basis for kits suggesting pitching dry. 

So I remain curious about why and when people choose to make starters with dry yeast.  Sometimes it's a cost factor.   Sometimes it's shipping (dry yeast appears to be much less sensitive to heat/cold during shipping).  There have been various discussions around flavor differences in the 0th (dry) generation of the yeast when compared to the later generations.   A recent (June 2019) HomeBrewTalk discussion ("Can we address the dry yeast yeast starter concept again?") may also be an interesting read.

I'm looking at brewing a couple of big beers (small batches) side by side this fall.  So I'm definitely interested in any insights that people have when using starters with dry yeast.