[WiscoGREG]

Hello Everyone.....new to homebrewing and new to this website and forum.  Looks like some great info here.  I started homebrewing just a little less than a year ago with the standard 5 gallon deluxe kit from Northern Brewer.  I truly enjoy the whole beer making process - however, I am struggling with this terribly.  I have read books, articles, forums, watched videos....you name it and I have yet been able to make a 'good' batch.  I have meticulously reviewed my process, taken notes, follow recipes to a "T" and I continue to get the exact same 'SOUR' taste to the beer.  I have tried different recipes and they all taste the same.  I have gone above and beyond the level of sanitization that I see and have read about.  We live in the country and have well water - I have tried all distilled water, spring water, you name it.  As an Engineer, you can probably imagine that this is absolutely driving me crazy.  I could go into a ton more detail but I am not going to write a book here.  After my latest experiment with distilled water (and I really thought that was going to be the fix to the problem) and still getting the same result, I am literally at the end of the rope here.  I cannot think of what aspect I have not tried to address here.  Very close to putting everything on Craigslist and saying the hell with it.  Wisconsin guy here who is very frustrated and truly believe I am missing something very simple but cannot figure it out.  Any help, suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance. 

[TANSTAAFB]

What are you fermenting in? How are you packaging? You don't have to worry about anything on the hot side (through the boil) as the heat will kill any bugs. But as soon as you chill your wort everything has to be sanitary. So get new plastic anything--buckets, tubing, racking cane, etc. Even gaskets on a ball valve connecting to your kettle. I bet if you use a new fermenter, racking cane, tubing, and bottling bucket you'll eliminate the issue. If you keg, change all rubber gaskets, o rings, poppets, relief valve o ring, etc. I use old plastic stuff for Brett and sour beers only.

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[denny]

Although sanitation is certainly important, the fact that you've gotten the f lavor on every batch leads me to wonder if maybe it's something else.  Does your water have chlorine or chloramine in it?  If so, do you do anything to remove it?  That could be the cause.

[WiscoGREG]

Thanks for the repies…

denny - I have not tested our water but this was the reason I have tried a few batches with store bought distilled water(eliminated the variable of our tap water all together).  I even used the distilled water to mix with Star-San for the sanitizer. 

TANSTAAFB - I see where are you going with that.  But it does raise the question of 'how often do you guys change out that equipment'??  Currently its the two glass carboys and then all plastic for the bottling bucket, tubing, racking cane, etc.  Currently still bottling.  Bottles, I have boiled in water, run through 'sanitize' cycle in the dishwasher, and on a few batches I did that and then still did a final quick rinse with Star-San.  But - I will give it a try.  Heck - I will just about willing try anything at this point. 

[denny]

Thanks for the repies…

denny - I have not tested our water but this was the reason I have tried a few batches with store bought distilled water(eliminated the variable of our tap water all together).  I even used the distilled water to mix with Star-San for the sanitizer. 

TANSTAAFB - I see where are you going with that.  But it does raise the question of 'how often do you guys change out that equipment'??  Currently its the two glass carboys and then all plastic for the bottling bucket, tubing, racking cane, etc.  Currently still bottling.  Bottles, I have boiled in water, run through 'sanitize' cycle in the dishwasher, and on a few batches I did that and then still did a final quick rinse with Star-San.  But - I will give it a try.  Heck - I will just about willing try anything at this point.

Great, we've eliminated a variable.  For me, I change put fermentation buckets and tubing every 15-20 years.

[jeffy]

I am not familiar with the kits from Northern Brewer. 
Are you making all grain or extract brews?
How many batches now that taste sour to you?
What styles did you make?
Was the yeast a different variety for each batch?
Are you letting the bottles condition for an appropriate length of time?  Some people mistake the flavor of yeast in suspension as a sour flavor, so you not only have to let it condition in the bottle, but you have to decant it into a glass to avoid the sediment.
Can you describe the smell?

[WiscoGREG]

jeffy - actually I have dabbled with both extract and all-grain but mostly extract...along with the same results from both. 
Its probably been 7-9 batches now.
I like IPA's so they have all been a Pale Ale or IPA recipe.
Yes, yeast has been different....both liquid and dry.  Again, just using what the recipe recommended. 
Also note, these have mostly been kits with everything included for you.
Bottle conditioning per the recipe - typically 2 weeks.  Yes - always decant into a glass. 
The smell.....kind of like aspirin.  Tastes sour and its very filling if that makes sense.  Almost like its incredibly over-carbonated.  Just a few sips and you feel extremely full. 
Also - they all have turned out pretty dark.  A few of the recipes was supposed to have a light tan color and they all are pretty dark. 

[BrewBama]

A cpl three things come to my mind:

Dark beer = possible oxidation
Aspirin = possible acetic bacteria ...or maybe over carbonic acid bite.

Oxidation — careful how you handle fermented beer. Don’t splash or pour from one container to another.

Acetic acid = clean with reputable cleanser and sanitize with iodophor if you’re not iodine sensitive. Otherwise Star San. I like to pay particular attention to valves.

If it’s carbonic bite carbonate less.


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[jeffy]

The dark color is most likely the result of oxidation, which may also be the source of the off flavor.  Try to limit the amount air being introduced while transferring and stirring (no splashing), especially after fermentation.
Two weeks is a fairly short time for conditioning.  You may be tasting some yeasty flavors.
Are the bottles over-carbonated or is that just a mouthfeel description?
(Some of this was already being addressed by brewbama while I was typing)

[WiscoGREG]

Again - Thanks for the replies....this is great info. 

Have definitely read a lot about the oxidation.  Try to be very careful with that.  No splashing.  Also transfer with a the racking cane and try to get tubing down into carboy as far as possible at the beginning so that the liquid is not "dropping" from the top of the carboy. 

So far I have just been using Star San and following the directions for mixing that. 

Typically address valves with a thorough wash after using and before using along with extensive coverage of Star San again.

I will definitely try to let the bottles sit longer for conditioning. 

Are the bottles actually over-carbonated?  I guess Im not really sure.  I don't really have anything to compare to other than store bought beer.  Again, following what the recipe says for using the priming sugar.  I can certainly back off on that as well. 

You do have me thinking more about the valve thing.  I am wondering now if I didn't clean/sanitize good enough from back when I first got the kit and made that first batch...??

[WiscoGREG]

What is the general consensus on glass carboys vs plastic?  The kit I got came with two glass carboys which I have read in several different places that those would be the preferred choice.  However, they are a pain in the arss to clean.  That concerns me as well.  Been temped to change to plastic just be able to access the inside for cleaning purposes. 

[Slowbrew]

Like most things in life they both have advantages and disadvantages.

Glass:

• Not gas permeable so less oxygen ingress
• good for long term aging in the fermenter
• Less likely to harbor infections when cleaned properly
• Can be difficult to dry hop in
• Hard to clean
• Heavy
• Fragile and dangerous when they break

Plastic

• Cheap
• Wide opening that make dry hopping and cleaning easier
• Comes with a handle
• Easily scratched and can harbor germs
• Not great for long term aging due to most plastics being slighting gas permeable
• Less likely to maim or kill if you break it

I use glass primaries for most of my brews.  I rarely rack to a secondary anymore and package in kegs.  Much less possibility for oxygenation but not everyone has the equipment for that routine.  When I have a lot of beers in process I also use plastic buckets but clean them with soft scrubbies and soak overnight with a sanitizer if I have any doubts about how clean they are.

If you are racking from a primary fermenter to a secondary, stop.  There are close to zero reasons to rack off the trub at the homebrew level.  Just let it sit in the primary for another week of two.

Paul

[ynotbrusum]

I am guessing that the problem is with the valve in the bottling bucket in your system or your racking cane.  I would look to replace them or skip the valve on the bottling bucket, entirely, by using an auto-siphon and a simple bottling wand attached to the tubing.  Cleaning and sanitation are key to avoiding off flavors, for sure.  Good luck with your equipment search - an entrenched contamination is unnerving. 

The glass is definitely a more sanitary approach than plastic, but more dangerous, so I only use glass for longer term storage anymore and treat it with kid gloves...my fermentation is typically in stainless that I clean and sanitize fastidiously and the valves and O-rings are routinely broken down periodically and boiled and the fermenters are cleaned with alkaline wash and occasionally treated for beer stone and occasionally filled with boiling hot water, then sanitized after sitting any length of time.  Cheers and stay with it; this really is a great hobby.

[BrewBama]

I have a carboy I haven’t used in years. I don’t use it because it can kill me. ...or at least give me stitches. I recommend stainless. If I drop it it might dent and spill the contents but it is a lot less dangerous. Expensive but cleans up great. Definitely pros and cons.


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[TANSTAAFB]

Oxiclean free is your friend! I haven't scrubbed a carboy in years. I try not to move my glass much, am careful when I do, and try to keep them in milk crates. They can be very dangerous when they break but MUCH less likely to harbor bacteria. Soak in oxiclean, be careful when rinsing cuz it makes those buggers super slippery, rinse well, sanitize with Star San, hey a new auto siphon and tubing. Or just buy a new plastic bucket and follow the same cleaning and sanitizing routine but be careful not to scratch it.

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