Author Topic: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?  (Read 2870 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2020, 04:56:36 PM »
Slow chilling also maximizes DMS formation, minimizes the chance of getting an effective cold break to have clear beer, and massively oxidizes the wort.  But these issues aren't important to some homebrewers.  My understanding is that some people try to address the risk of infection -- which should matter to anyone -- by tightly sealing the hot wort right off the boil in a vessel that can withstand the vacuum that will occur on cooling, so the wort is supposed to be subjected to a sort of poor man's pasteurization as it begins to cool.  I used to do something like this making starters.  I'd boil up my DME, pour it into a Mason jar, seal it up, and make my starter the next day, to save the effort of an ice bath.  I'm not dead.  I also didn't expect to enjoy drinking my starter.

It's not that they're not important, it's that based on experience they appear to be canards.  Unless you have tried no chill and the beer made from it, all comments need to be tempered.
Yeah, there are good reasons why one of the first great improvements in beer quality was the ability to chill rapidly.  Right up there with temperature control in fermentation.  Not going back.  When I hear people say that they can do this, that and the other without affecting the quality of their beer, I have to question the baseline of quality.  But if people are happy with a technique, it's their choice.

Sorry but unless you've tried the technique or beer made from it, I find it hard to give your opinion credence.  I was as skeptical as you, but I now have personal experience that tells me my skepticism was unfounded.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2020, 07:11:23 PM »
Slow chilling also maximizes DMS formation, minimizes the chance of getting an effective cold break to have clear beer, and massively oxidizes the wort.  But these issues aren't important to some homebrewers.  My understanding is that some people try to address the risk of infection -- which should matter to anyone -- by tightly sealing the hot wort right off the boil in a vessel that can withstand the vacuum that will occur on cooling, so the wort is supposed to be subjected to a sort of poor man's pasteurization as it begins to cool.  I used to do something like this making starters.  I'd boil up my DME, pour it into a Mason jar, seal it up, and make my starter the next day, to save the effort of an ice bath.  I'm not dead.  I also didn't expect to enjoy drinking my starter.

It's not that they're not important, it's that based on experience they appear to be canards.  Unless you have tried no chill and the beer made from it, all comments need to be tempered.
Yeah, there are good reasons why one of the first great improvements in beer quality was the ability to chill rapidly.  Right up there with temperature control in fermentation.  Not going back.  When I hear people say that they can do this, that and the other without affecting the quality of their beer, I have to question the baseline of quality.  But if people are happy with a technique, it's their choice.

Sorry but unless you've tried the technique or beer made from it, I find it hard to give your opinion credence.  I was as skeptical as you, but I now have personal experience that tells me my skepticism was unfounded.
Like I said, back in my early days, I couldn't chill.  Quick chilling was a big improvement IME.  I've kept improving my chilling time and kept seeing benefits.  Others will have to see for themselves.  I did try skipping the chiller again maybe 10 years ago to see for myself the difference.  It was remarkable, and that batch was a dumper.  But by then, I'd also tightened up a lot more of my process and raised my expectations, which still continues and always will. So that's my experience, actually observing easily predictable effects of not chilling quickly.   Science isn't a speculation or abstraction you can't readily observe, it's the result of cumulative, repeatable observations.  If your observations differ from what proven science predicts, then there must be some other cause at work, which can also be scientifically identified. 

I realize that there's an inclination to tell homebrewers that things don't matter, not to worry, so as to avoid overwhelming or discouraging them.  But ultimately I believe that many will be more encouraged and satisfied by learning how to improve their outcomes.  If chilling isn't making a noticeable impact, then there must be other things that could be improved that are obscuring other faults. 

And I would hope that this forum, and the AHA in general, might aspire to be good resources for educating those who want to learn, not just an echo chamber for what a few have already decided is comforting and want to keep hearing.  I've learned a lot from them past, but there seems to be a chill falling on the place.  Pun intended.
Rob Stein
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Offline denny

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2020, 07:28:14 PM »
Education is exactly what I'm all about, and that's what I'm doing by telling people no chill works great.  Remember when doctors told people that smoking was good for them.  Fortunately, some people looked beyond the conventional wisdom.  I think uts important to not let what you "know" stand in the way of finding out what you don't know.
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2020, 09:10:29 PM »
Slow chilling also maximizes DMS formation, minimizes the chance of getting an effective cold break to have clear beer, and massively oxidizes the wort.  But these issues aren't important to some homebrewers.  My understanding is that some people try to address the risk of infection -- which should matter to anyone -- by tightly sealing the hot wort right off the boil in a vessel that can withstand the vacuum that will occur on cooling, so the wort is supposed to be subjected to a sort of poor man's pasteurization as it begins to cool.  I used to do something like this making starters.  I'd boil up my DME, pour it into a Mason jar, seal it up, and make my starter the next day, to save the effort of an ice bath.  I'm not dead.  I also didn't expect to enjoy drinking my starter.

It's not that they're not important, it's that based on experience they appear to be canards.  Unless you have tried no chill and the beer made from it, all comments need to be tempered.
Yeah, there are good reasons why one of the first great improvements in beer quality was the ability to chill rapidly.  Right up there with temperature control in fermentation.  Not going back.  When I hear people say that they can do this, that and the other without affecting the quality of their beer, I have to question the baseline of quality.  But if people are happy with a technique, it's their choice.

Sorry but unless you've tried the technique or beer made from it, I find it hard to give your opinion credence.  I was as skeptical as you, but I now have personal experience that tells me my skepticism was unfounded.
Like I said, back in my early days, I couldn't chill.  Quick chilling was a big improvement IME.  I've kept improving my chilling time and kept seeing benefits.  Others will have to see for themselves.  I did try skipping the chiller again maybe 10 years ago to see for myself the difference.  It was remarkable, and that batch was a dumper.  But by then, I'd also tightened up a lot more of my process and raised my expectations, which still continues and always will. So that's my experience, actually observing easily predictable effects of not chilling quickly.   Science isn't a speculation or abstraction you can't readily observe, it's the result of cumulative, repeatable observations.  If your observations differ from what proven science predicts, then there must be some other cause at work, which can also be scientifically identified. 

I realize that there's an inclination to tell homebrewers that things don't matter, not to worry, so as to avoid overwhelming or discouraging them.  But ultimately I believe that many will be more encouraged and satisfied by learning how to improve their outcomes.  If chilling isn't making a noticeable impact, then there must be other things that could be improved that are obscuring other faults. 

And I would hope that this forum, and the AHA in general, might aspire to be good resources for educating those who want to learn, not just an echo chamber for what a few have already decided is comforting and want to keep hearing.  I've learned a lot from them past, but there seems to be a chill falling on the place.  Pun intended.
I would like to interject at this point that I enjoy reading all of your posts and try to absorb most of the brewing knowledge that you share on this forum.  Please don’t be discouraged that some people may not be able to confirm established science in their own backyard.  I will continue to listen to all contributors.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline denny

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2020, 09:21:42 PM »
I would like to interject at this point that I enjoy reading all of your posts and try to absorb most of the brewing knowledge that you share on this forum.  Please don’t be discouraged that some people may not be able to confirm established science in their own backyard.  I will continue to listen to all contributors.

Thank goodness someone questioned the established science that smoking is good for you, or that the horse and buggy is the way to travel
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline jeffy

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2020, 09:35:18 PM »
I would like to interject at this point that I enjoy reading all of your posts and try to absorb most of the brewing knowledge that you share on this forum.  Please don’t be discouraged that some people may not be able to confirm established science in their own backyard.  I will continue to listen to all contributors.

Thank goodness someone questioned the established science that smoking is good for you, or that the horse and buggy is the way to travel
I don’t think those analogies work.  There was no science that said smoking was good for you, only industry bias or its  propaganda.  No science that horse and buggy was the way to travel, only fear of technology or the unknown. 
I just don’t want Rob’s posts to go the way of the low O2 German guys.  I like to continue reading his as well as your posts.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline mainebrewer

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2020, 09:43:25 PM »
I would like to interject at this point that I enjoy reading all of your posts and try to absorb most of the brewing knowledge that you share on this forum.  Please don’t be discouraged that some people may not be able to confirm established science in their own backyard.  I will continue to listen to all contributors.

Thank goodness someone questioned the established science that smoking is good for you, or that the horse and buggy is the way to travel
I don’t think those analogies work.  There was no science that said smoking was good for you, only industry bias or its  propaganda.  No science that horse and buggy was the way to travel, only fear of technology or the unknown. 
I just don’t want Rob’s posts to go the way of the low O2 German guys.  I like to continue reading his as well as your posts.

I'm glad you made this comment, it needed to be said!
"It's not that people are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that just isn't true." Ronald Reagan

Offline denny

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2020, 09:47:26 PM »
I would like to interject at this point that I enjoy reading all of your posts and try to absorb most of the brewing knowledge that you share on this forum.  Please don’t be discouraged that some people may not be able to confirm established science in their own backyard.  I will continue to listen to all contributors.

Thank goodness someone questioned the established science that smoking is good for you, or that the horse and buggy is the way to travel
I don’t think those analogies work.  There was no science that said smoking was good for you, only industry bias or its  propaganda.  No science that horse and buggy was the way to travel, only fear of technology or the unknown. 
I just don’t want Rob’s posts to go the way of the low O2 German guys.  I like to continue reading his as well as your posts.

I completely agree.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline denny

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2020, 09:54:04 PM »
I would like to interject at this point that I enjoy reading all of your posts and try to absorb most of the brewing knowledge that you share on this forum.  Please don’t be discouraged that some people may not be able to confirm established science in their own backyard.  I will continue to listen to all contributors.

Thank goodness someone questioned the established science that smoking is good for you, or that the horse and buggy is the way to travel
I don’t think those analogies work.  There was no science that said smoking was good for you, only industry bias or its  propaganda.  No science that horse and buggy was the way to travel, only fear of technology or the unknown. 
I just don’t want Rob’s posts to go the way of the low O2 German guys.  I like to continue reading his as well as your posts.

I'm glad you made this comment, it needed to be said!

It's just that when I know somehting works, I get agitated when I'm told it doesn't.  OK, I'll shut up now.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline brewsumore

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2020, 10:38:30 PM »
Like I said before, I am not scientifically well-informed.  However, we all know that acidic foods preserve better without refrigeration, than alkaline foods.  So, we don't need to refrigerate vinegar for instance.  I never took Chemistry, but I looked up the acid alkaline scale and see that on the scale, which goes from 1 to 14, acidic foods are those with pH of 7 or less.  So, boiled wort, coming in as I recall typically between 4.9 and 5.2 is somewhat acidic.  Could this be related to why often (or sometimes), slow chilled wort into beer tastes much more on the "good to bad flavor scale" akin to sarsparilla than horse piss?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 11:10:41 PM by brewsumore »

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2020, 10:56:58 PM »
I recall this Scott Janis article on DMS formation.  Highly modified malts, boil length, and many other factors affect DMS formation:

http://scottjanish.com/how-to-prevent-dms-in-beer/

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Offline brewsumore

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2020, 06:16:25 AM »
I too enjoy reading everyone's viewpoints as they are interesting and represent experiences.  That is, they cover experiences beyond the limited scope of my own, and represent (hopefully good) thought and often innovation, or at least an effort that led to improved mastery of the brewing craft.  Scientific method sometimes smacks up against attempts to simplify, reduce unnecessary work, or adapt to limitations -- to achieve the desired result of BEER.  And scientific method can only be most effectively applied when we correctly understand the laws of nature at work; not always understood very well.

There are a lot of good scientists, engineers, mathematicians, etc. on here - it's pretty awesome to just sit back and read and learn from others!!

Also, I apologize for waxing a bit crude in a previous post - in the attempt to be humorous.  And, it's obvious to me that if people don't hold a strong opinion, then maybe they were just guessing.   ;D ;D ;D     Prost!

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2020, 02:19:05 PM »
Making a point contrary to the establishment on this forum is akin to wrestling a pig. Pretty soon it dawns on you that the pig enjoys it (considers it a sport) and you just end up frustrated and muddy.

Last time I checked Grainfather counterflow chillers, glycol chillers, hydra IM and the like are technology leaps beyond no chill. If no chill is so great why use those technologies?


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Offline denny

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Re: Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2020, 02:22:00 PM »
Making a point contrary to the establishment on this forum is akin to wrestling a pig. Pretty soon it dawns on you that the pig enjoys it (considers it a sport) and you just end up frustrated and muddy.

Last time I checked Grainfather counterflow chillers, glycol chillers, hydra IM and the like are technology leaps beyond no chill. If no chill is so great why use those technologies?


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Because some people, like Australians, don't have that choice.  They have to do no chill.  My point is not that you should do it.  It's that you can do it.  And because I've tasted the result, many times, I know that it works.
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Offline BrewBama

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Brewing outdoor in cold weather?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2020, 08:26:05 PM »
Oh, I’ve tasted no chill beer. ...and I know why Aussies began the practice. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Like you said: doesn’t mean we should.

...but if it works so well why not use it yourself?


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« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 08:34:03 PM by BrewBama »
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