[Matt H]

Hi all,

I'm brewing a rye ale and I've been getting really lost with the water chemistry - specifically the mash pH and alkalinity. Here is the link to the water calculator: https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=DCHSNXX

and full ingredient list here: https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/930664/noctuary-revisited-again-

My source water:
Ca: 21
Mg: 6
Na: 19
Cl: 42
So: 13
HCO: 46
pH: 7.8

Target:
Ca: 125
Mg: 8
Na: 20
Cl: 135
So: 135
HCO: 75
pH: 5.2

I'm using the Brewer's Friend Mash Chemistry & Brewing Water Calculator. Normally, I would just punch in the mash/kettle salt additions, hit the target, and be done; however, I'm trying to hit a pH of 5.2. It doesn't seem like any addition of Gypsum, CaCl, etc. or any of the malts are going to get me below a pH of 5.5

So in this case, I want to add 4mL of 88% Lactic Acid to get to pH 5.2, which looks like it essentially negates all HCO3 (calculator says negative 75ppm HCO3). In order to get the HCO3 back to target, I need to either add chalk or slaked lime to alkalize the wort after its collected? But I keep reading that chalk doesn't dissolve in water... and the slaked lime is just throwing the calculator for a loop.

So, my question is - how do I both lower the pH for the mash and then raise the pH (alkalinity?) back for the beer so without messing up all of the other salt levels etc.? I'm also really confused with the multiple ways to express/say everything here - alkalinity, temporary this-and-that hardness 

Also, if you couldn't tell, I'm a novice brewer and I'm totally lost in the sauce at this point with water chemistry haha. Thanks for the help in advance!

-Matt

[dmtaylor]

You have good water.  Forget about water chemistry.  Or, if you absolutely must, then add all the salts and acids you want except ignore the HCO3 which is really what's hosing it all up and has no real benefit... unless you want to mash at 5.6 as some of us are trying these days, then skip the acid instead.  One or the other, not both.

[Silver_Is_Money]

Dave is correct, there is no need for additional alkalinity.  No mash water acid addition either.  Via my calculator it looks like it should mash at around pH 5.4 without any acid or bicarb addition once mineralized to your general target levels (sans for bicarbonate).

You will however need to acidify your sparge water to the pH 5.4 - 5.6 range.

[denny]

My water is very similar. If your ale is hoppy like mine is, all I do is add a tsp. of gypsum. If it's not a bitter beer, O wouldn't do anything.

[Bob357]

leave out the baking soda addition. All it's doing is producing a need to add acid, or increase the acid addition. Once the rest of your brewing salts have been added, the pH will tell you whether you need acid or baking soda to hit your target.

[kramerog]

Everyone's advice looks pretty sound.  My question is why are you trying to lower the pH for the mash and then raise the pH (alkalinity?) back for the beer?  In any case, you will get a modest boost in overall wort pH if you don't adjust your sparge water.

[narvin]

Everyone's advice looks pretty sound.  My question is why are you trying to lower the pH for the mash and then raise the pH (alkalinity?) back for the beer?  In any case, you will get a modest boost in overall wort pH if you don't adjust your sparge water.

It looks like an attempt to match a target water profile.  They can be a decent starting point but breweries usually take the source water an then do things to reduce alkalinity (pre-boiling, acid) so you really don't want to match the alkalinity.  Just aim for the correct mash pH.  Of course, if you're making a very dark beer that could mean adding alkalinity but that's really the only time you would want to.

[Matt H]

Thanks all for your advice - I really appreciate the help! So it sounds like I lost the plot a bit trying to chase specific water profiles, originally thinking that HCO3/alkalinity was going to be a big factor affecting the overall mouthfeel/flavor of the finished beer, when it's really just specifically related to the proper pH during mash.

I think what really confused me was reading J.P's brewing range recommendations: HCO3/ 0-50ppm pale/malt only beer, 50-150ppm amber-colored, toasted malt beer,(what I was going for based on my beer) 150-250ppm dark, roasted malt beer. Kramerog, I think this is why I was trying to increase the alkalinity after the mash.

Someone in another post said: "...RA and alkalinity are not really relevant as an output. What is important with the various water calculators is the calculated mash pH. The RA value is used for calculating pH, but there is really no inherent value in the RA value itself. It largely persists as a visible thing in the calculators for historical reasons..."

[a10t2]

I think what really confused me was reading J.P's brewing range recommendations: HCO3/ 0-50ppm pale/malt only beer, 50-150ppm amber-colored, toasted malt beer,(what I was going for based on my beer) 150-250ppm dark, roasted malt beer. Kramerog, I think this is why I was trying to increase the alkalinity after the mash.

Broadly speaking, those are probably decent targets if you aren't estimating/measuring mash pH; i.e. targeting ~100 ppm HCO₃^- will *probably* keep the pH for an amber-colored beer in range. Since you're targeting a mash pH a little below the standard range, that advice may not apply anyway, even if you weren't doing a more involved pH estimate.

[Iliff Ave]

Looks like my water. Are you in the Denver area?

[narvin]

I think what really confused me was reading J.P's brewing range recommendations: HCO3/ 0-50ppm pale/malt only beer, 50-150ppm amber-colored, toasted malt beer,(what I was going for based on my beer) 150-250ppm dark, roasted malt beer. Kramerog, I think this is why I was trying to increase the alkalinity after the mash.

Broadly speaking, those are probably decent targets if you aren't estimating/measuring mash pH; i.e. targeting ~100 ppm HCO₃^- will *probably* keep the pH for an amber-colored beer in range. Since you're targeting a mash pH a little below the standard range, that advice may not apply anyway, even if you weren't doing a more involved pH estimate.

This is true.  There's a rabbit hole to go down regarding the mash pH at room temperature vs mash temperature as well as what the optimal pH actually is at mash temperature, but in general you should be fine between 5.2 and 5.6 really.  Depending on the style you may want to aim for one end of the range or the other for your tastes.

[Matt H]

Looks like my water. Are you in the Denver area?

I wish! I'm in Baltimore.

[Matt H]

I think what really confused me was reading J.P's brewing range recommendations: HCO3/ 0-50ppm pale/malt only beer, 50-150ppm amber-colored, toasted malt beer,(what I was going for based on my beer) 150-250ppm dark, roasted malt beer. Kramerog, I think this is why I was trying to increase the alkalinity after the mash.

Broadly speaking, those are probably decent targets if you aren't estimating/measuring mash pH; i.e. targeting ~100 ppm HCO₃^- will *probably* keep the pH for an amber-colored beer in range. Since you're targeting a mash pH a little below the standard range, that advice may not apply anyway, even if you weren't doing a more involved pH estimate.

This is true.  There's a rabbit hole to go down regarding the mash pH at room temperature vs mash temperature as well as what the optimal pH actually is at mash temperature, but in general you should be fine between 5.2 and 5.6 really.  Depending on the style you may want to aim for one end of the range or the other for your tastes.

Haha, well I think I'll avoid going down that rabbit hole until the next brew. Thanks for the help! I'll shoot for somewhere in that pH range and see how it goes.