Author Topic: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy  (Read 599 times)

Offline Descardeci

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Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« on: May 27, 2020, 01:15:10 AM »
Hey folks, hope you're all well in this time.
I need a little help, I bought 2 yeast from MJ the M36 and the M15, I'm planning to brew two batches of 5 gallon, one Scottish Heavy and one Best Bitter, first I thought to use the M15 Empire Ale for the bitter, to get more body and a little more esters to the beer, not to over power the malt and hops, but a little in the back, but after some read I'm think to trade the M15 to the Scottish Heavy and go with the M36, liberty bell, with the Best Bitter.
I need some reviews/feedback/advices about this yeast, anyone can help?
Cheer folks!

Offline jverduin

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2020, 03:50:36 PM »
I really enjoy the various Scottish Ales. Lately, I’ve been doing 10 gallon BIAB so it is easy for me to pitch different yeasts into the same wort.

Recently, I split a Wee Heavy and fermented with a Scottish Ale yeast (Imperial Tartan) and did a more expressive yeast (Imperial Darkness reportedly similar to an Irish Ale strain). Both were fermented around 64 degrees.

The Tartan version was like I expected. It was very malt forward and clean. The Darkness version had sort of a dark cherry fruitiness to it. It wasn’t bad, but it was starkly different and to me, the malt character seemed muted.

If you only have those two choices, the M15 may be a better choice for the Scottish Ale. Liberty Bell could be a bit of a wild card. I’d assume it is similar to the American Ale II or California V. I think these are reportedly very different strains from each other. White Labs now reports their strain as a lager strain. Mangrove Jack says top fermenting so maybe more like Wyeast 1272. It would be fruity with a bit of nutty character at the low end temp and gets more expressive as you go to the high end (in my experience). Maybe this one is a better choice for the bitter.


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Offline Visor

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2020, 04:00:05 PM »
   M-15 used to be sold as M-03 UK dark ale, I've used it a couple times under both incarnations. From my limited experience I'd recommend against using it for your Scottish Heavy, I tried it once in a Wee Heavy with an O.G. of 1.097 and it pooped out at 1.041, had to finish the beer off with a different yeast. That batch I split the ferment between M-15 and WY1728 [yes I actually had one package of liquid yeast arrive in a viable state] and the 1728 finished at 1.026, and tasted much more like what I'd expect from a Wee Heavy.
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Offline Cliffs

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2020, 05:28:47 PM »
   M-15 used to be sold as M-03 UK dark ale, I've used it a couple times under both incarnations. From my limited experience I'd recommend against using it for your Scottish Heavy, I tried it once in a Wee Heavy with an O.G. of 1.097 and it pooped out at 1.041, had to finish the beer off with a different yeast. That batch I split the ferment between M-15 and WY1728 [yes I actually had one package of liquid yeast arrive in a viable state] and the 1728 finished at 1.026, and tasted much more like what I'd expect from a Wee Heavy.

Sorry to not answer your question OP, but 1728 is as close to a house yeast as i've got and I use it in darn near everything malt forward that I brew and in my opinion  its irreplaceable in scottish styles. Do you have access to white labs?

Offline Bob357

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2020, 06:45:46 PM »
I consistently get 67% apparent attenuation with Empire Ale unless I add simple sugar. I love it for bitters. It leaves a lot of malt presence, but doesn't really produce beers that appear to be under attenuated.

Liberty Bell is quickly becoming my house yeast. I use it in all of my Pale, Cream and Blonde Ales and am going to also start using it in American IPAs. I'm getting 75+% AA and it flocculates well. I'm finding it produces beers not quite as dry and clean as M42 or M44, but I really like the quite low ester level and the fact that it doesn't suppress the hops.

My personal preference in your case would be to use the M15 in the Bitter and the M36 in the Scotch Ale. My thinking is that with a fairly high mash temperature, and the scant amount of hops typical to Scotch Ales, the Liberty Bell would work just fine.
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Offline Descardeci

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2020, 09:12:20 PM »
   M-15 used to be sold as M-03 UK dark ale, I've used it a couple times under both incarnations. From my limited experience I'd recommend against using it for your Scottish Heavy, I tried it once in a Wee Heavy with an O.G. of 1.097 and it pooped out at 1.041, had to finish the beer off with a different yeast. That batch I split the ferment between M-15 and WY1728 [yes I actually had one package of liquid yeast arrive in a viable state] and the 1728 finished at 1.026, and tasted much more like what I'd expect from a Wee Heavy.

Sorry to not answer your question OP, but 1728 is as close to a house yeast as i've got and I use it in darn near everything malt forward that I brew and in my opinion  its irreplaceable in scottish styles. Do you have access to white labs?
First thank you all for the answer, but I don't have acess to white labs here, there one place who sell but due to the quarentine the transport would not happen, they both beers would be low ABV, gonna do a dunkel bock, a american IPA, and Dark saison with higher ABV, so something with low would be nice. My first thought on the M15 is because of the low attenuation for the bitter, I did the same recipe with a vermont yeast, didnt find the one I wanted, the London III, so I take a risk, was a low temp so it was ok, the other yeast was the S04 which I have a problem with, the only time I did work with that yeast was in a English Porter, but now I want to do this recipe right, with a little extra body, like 1,012, ABV of 3,9-4%, I readed a lot and the M15 looked perfect but yesterday I thought the malt forward of the yeast could be perfect for the scottish, also low ABV 3,8-3,9%. I don't know what to do yet, but what Bob357, you jverduin and  said make me think going the M15 to the bitter and M36, I already used with high temp produce a lot of esters, for the scottish but keep on the cold side, 62-63 F, and mash on the high side of temp 156-157 F, good think a little more, read a little more, and gonna brew next month, in july is ready and gonna give you guys the feedback.
Cheer folks, and stay safe

Offline Descardeci

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2020, 09:16:33 PM »
I forget to say, some ppl compare the M15 with the London ESB, what you guys think?

Offline Visor

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2020, 03:57:03 PM »
   I've never done a split ferment between London ESB & M15 and wouldn't want to try to compare the two yeasts until I had, apples to oranges you know.
   I didn't mean to imply that M-15 is always a poor attenuator, one 60ish gravity batch I used it in did 87% AA. But in the split batch in a high gravity beer it didn't perform nearly as well as 1728, TIFWIW.
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Offline Descardeci

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2020, 05:15:35 PM »
   I've never done a split ferment between London ESB & M15 and wouldn't want to try to compare the two yeasts until I had, apples to oranges you know.
   I didn't mean to imply that M-15 is always a poor attenuator, one 60ish gravity batch I used it in did 87% AA. But in the split batch in a high gravity beer it didn't perform nearly as well as 1728, TIFWIW.
I know you didn't mean, no worries there, those both gonna be low gravity, I'm hoping for good results, but still think in which yeast use for which beer.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2020, 05:49:19 PM »
I would choose purely based on attenuation, and OG and intended ABV.  Liberty will attenuate almost 80%, and Empire only 67%.  There are some flavor differences but the bigger difference is attenuation.  I use this selection method as another tool in the toolbox.

And since you really only need 1/2 pack of dried yeast to make 5 or 6 gallons, you could even use the same pack of yeast for both batches if you wanted.
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Offline Descardeci

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2020, 06:46:39 PM »
I would choose purely based on attenuation, and OG and intended ABV.  Liberty will attenuate almost 80%, and Empire only 67%.  There are some flavor differences but the bigger difference is attenuation.  I use this selection method as another tool in the toolbox.

And since you really only need 1/2 pack of dried yeast to make 5 or 6 gallons, you could even use the same pack of yeast for both batches if you wanted.
I thought that, using both, but I think I'm going with the direction you mention, based on attenuation. Thank you all for the replies, gonna give you guys a feedback about the beers

Offline Descardeci

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2020, 04:04:07 PM »
Just a update on the beers, The best bitter is finally reaching the FG, 3 weeks, 1.009 which is weird for a so low attenuated yeast, the OG was 1.042, and the scottish heavy was brewed last friday, the fermentation going stead, on 62 F, gonna want a little diacetyl in her. I'm trulled puzzle with the FG in the best bitter I mash in the temp of 153, maybe for a small beer the yeast eated more sugar that would. Gonna wait more 1 week and check again on boths, after this cold crash for 2 weeks and bottle

Offline Descardeci

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2020, 04:41:16 PM »
I tried the best bitter this weekend, the flavor is really good, a little too dry, I underestimate the attenuation of the yeast, but everything is in the spot, the scottish heavy need a little more CO2, gonna give more time, but is a good beer too, fg was a little higher than I wanted but I liked is light, there flavor and I can drink a lot of it.
Thanks for the help folks! Cheers

Offline Northern_Brewer

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2020, 12:23:54 PM »
I tried the best bitter this weekend, the flavor is really good, a little too dry, I underestimate the attenuation of the yeast

1.009 is completely normal for a bitter, particularly in northern England. People have this weird idea that bitter is always sweet when many of the best ones aren't at all sweet, FGs can range from 1.003 upwards. Historically, any kind of residual sugar was a problem in export beer, as it could provide food for secondary fermentations in warm climates. If you think a bottle bomb is bad, imagine sailing to India with a whole ship full of exploding barrels! So Burton brewers in particular needed high-attenuating yeast, and came up with the Burton Union system as a way to compensate for the poor flocculation of high-attenuating yeast. That's how desperate they were for high attenuation!

Part of it is that foreigners think that the beer they drink as tourists in the Thames Valley is somehow representative of the country as a whole, when it uses an extreme of crystal malt. It's a bit like thinking that all Italian wine must taste like lambrusco, when in fact there's huge variation across regions, from brachetto and Valpolicella to amarone and Barolo.

Offline Descardeci

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Re: Help to a bitter and Scottish Heavy
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2020, 04:22:48 PM »
I tried the best bitter this weekend, the flavor is really good, a little too dry, I underestimate the attenuation of the yeast

1.009 is completely normal for a bitter, particularly in northern England. People have this weird idea that bitter is always sweet when many of the best ones aren't at all sweet, FGs can range from 1.003 upwards. Historically, any kind of residual sugar was a problem in export beer, as it could provide food for secondary fermentations in warm climates. If you think a bottle bomb is bad, imagine sailing to India with a whole ship full of exploding barrels! So Burton brewers in particular needed high-attenuating yeast, and came up with the Burton Union system as a way to compensate for the poor flocculation of high-attenuating yeast. That's how desperate they were for high attenuation!

Part of it is that foreigners think that the beer they drink as tourists in the Thames Valley is somehow representative of the country as a whole, when it uses an extreme of crystal malt. It's a bit like thinking that all Italian wine must taste like lambrusco, when in fact there's huge variation across regions, from brachetto and Valpolicella to amarone and Barolo.
This is the second time that my bitter came out a little drier than I anticipated, not a bad thing I liked that way and the esthers is beautiful I can't get over this how good the final beer it is, This yeast gonna go to my house yeast for sure, the only bad thing is the slow attenuation, not low, take to much time