[Robert]

Reading the link at Jim’s and the instructions Mark posted here on AHA, I never understood why folks shake then add yeast when he describes adding yeast then shaking.

Maybe just semantics. I guess it works either way.


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I can't imagine that the order matters.

You sure shaking the yeast doesn't introduce too much shear force?

[Frankenbrew]

Reading the link at Jim’s and the instructions Mark posted here on AHA, I never understood why folks shake then add yeast when he describes adding yeast then shaking.

Maybe just semantics. I guess it works either way.


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I can't imagine that the order matters.

You sure shaking the yeast doesn't introduce too much shear force?

I don't think the order is just semantics. The issue that the OP and others are having is that the foam dies down too quickly. Add the yeast first, shake and leave the cap on for 30 minutes--leaving the cap on with the yeast already present allows the foam to feed oxygen to the yeast longer than if you open to pitch after you shake.

[Frankenbrew]

In addition, Mark addressed the problem with shear force, but suggested that it was less of a negative than a couple of days on a stir plate.

[stpug]

Going off of memory here, but my recollection was that ORDER IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Add wort, yeast, and then shake to produce lots of foam.  The yeast become entrained in the surfaces that create every little bubble of the foam with air surrounding most of each yeast cell providing sufficient oxygen for those cells to generate sufficient sterol reserves needed for budding with enough reserves for the harsh environment late in the fermentation.  If you were to take the foam bubble's surface area and lay it out flat/2D, the surface area of the foam (i.e. the walls that makes up each bubble) is VASTLY greater than the ~5" diameter surface of a foamless surface found inside a growler/etc.  The cells also become suspended in the foam bubble walls where they are kept for a longer period of time to uptake the oxygen they are in contact with.  Finally, the yeast slurry that is added prior to shaking adds to the foam retention after shaking such that the yeast will have the longer time to be in contact with oxygen - granted, not infinite but longer nonetheless.  At least, that's how I recall it.

[denny]

Reading the link at Jim’s and the instructions Mark posted here on AHA, I never understood why folks shake then add yeast when he describes adding yeast then shaking.

Maybe just semantics. I guess it works either way.


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I can't imagine that the order matters.

You sure shaking the yeast doesn't introduce too much shear force?

 

I'm sure and I wouldn't care if it did unless I knew it has a negative impact on me.

[denny]

In addition, Mark addressed the problem with shear force, but suggested that it was less of a negative than a couple of days on a stir plate.

Both of the issues you raise re more theoretical than real.  If therww is shear force in shaking, it's never had a negative effect on my beer.   And I've pitched forst and shaken first and it made absolutely no difference to the finished product.  That's what matters isn't it?

[denny]

Going off of memory here, but my recollection was that ORDER IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Add wort, yeast, and then shake to produce lots of foam.  The yeast become entrained in the surfaces that create every little bubble of the foam with air surrounding most of each yeast cell providing sufficient oxygen for those cells to generate sufficient sterol reserves needed for budding with enough reserves for the harsh environment late in the fermentation.  If you were to take the foam bubble's surface area and lay it out flat/2D, the surface area of the foam (i.e. the walls that makes up each bubble) is VASTLY greater than the ~5" diameter surface of a foamless surface found inside a growler/etc.  The cells also become suspended in the foam bubble walls where they are kept for a longer period of time to uptake the oxygen they are in contact with.  Finally, the yeast slurry that is added prior to shaking adds to the foam retention after shaking such that the yeast will have the longer time to be in contact with oxygen - granted, not infinite but longer nonetheless.  At least, that's how I recall it.

But in the real homebrew world, it just doesn't matter.  At least not in my testing.  If someone else wants to test it, I'd love to hear their results.

[stpug]

Going off of memory here, but my recollection was that ORDER IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Add wort, yeast, and then shake to produce lots of foam.  The yeast become entrained in the surfaces that create every little bubble of the foam with air surrounding most of each yeast cell providing sufficient oxygen for those cells to generate sufficient sterol reserves needed for budding with enough reserves for the harsh environment late in the fermentation.  If you were to take the foam bubble's surface area and lay it out flat/2D, the surface area of the foam (i.e. the walls that makes up each bubble) is VASTLY greater than the ~5" diameter surface of a foamless surface found inside a growler/etc.  The cells also become suspended in the foam bubble walls where they are kept for a longer period of time to uptake the oxygen they are in contact with.  Finally, the yeast slurry that is added prior to shaking adds to the foam retention after shaking such that the yeast will have the longer time to be in contact with oxygen - granted, not infinite but longer nonetheless.  At least, that's how I recall it.

But in the real homebrew world, it just doesn't matter.  At least not in my testing.  If someone else wants to test it, I'd love to hear their results.

My recollection is that Mark indicated that it DOES matter - maybe not to you, but to the yeast.  Chances are that there is some kind of difference, but that the difference is either lost on you (too minor to distinguish) OR not important to you (yeast health becomes more important on successive pitches and if you're not going generations deep then not an issue).  Also, given that the difference would likely be flavor/aroma/nuance, you may simply be missing it due to your inability to reliably smell/taste (by your own words, see below), or it could be so minor that it's "no big deal" to you.

I'm 68 and I've retired from judging because I can't taste or smell reliably any more.  Some days it's fine, others it fades in and out.  I finally decided it wasn't  vair to comp entrants to judge their beer if I wasn't t my best.  So I'd say it depends on why you want BJCP certification.  If it's for your own enjoyment and edification, go for it.  If it's so you can judge, be realisitic.

[Kevin]

Am I wrong here? For some reason I was under the impression that S. Cerevisiae, Mark Van Ditta and YeastWhisperer were all names used on different forums but the same person?

[BrewBama]

Am I wrong here? For some reason I was under the impression that S. Cerevisiae, Mark Van Ditta and YeastWhisperer were all names used on different forums but the same person?

I believe you are correct.


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[denny]

Going off of memory here, but my recollection was that ORDER IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Add wort, yeast, and then shake to produce lots of foam.  The yeast become entrained in the surfaces that create every little bubble of the foam with air surrounding most of each yeast cell providing sufficient oxygen for those cells to generate sufficient sterol reserves needed for budding with enough reserves for the harsh environment late in the fermentation.  If you were to take the foam bubble's surface area and lay it out flat/2D, the surface area of the foam (i.e. the walls that makes up each bubble) is VASTLY greater than the ~5" diameter surface of a foamless surface found inside a growler/etc.  The cells also become suspended in the foam bubble walls where they are kept for a longer period of time to uptake the oxygen they are in contact with.  Finally, the yeast slurry that is added prior to shaking adds to the foam retention after shaking such that the yeast will have the longer time to be in contact with oxygen - granted, not infinite but longer nonetheless.  At least, that's how I recall it.

But in the real homebrew world, it just doesn't matter.  At least not in my testing.  If someone else wants to test it, I'd love to hear their results.

My recollection is that Mark indicated that it DOES matter - maybe not to you, but to the yeast.  Chances are that there is some kind of difference, but that the difference is either lost on you (too minor to distinguish) OR not important to you (yeast health becomes more important on successive pitches and if you're not going generations deep then not an issue).  Also, given that the difference would likely be flavor/aroma/nuance, you may simply be missing it due to your inability to reliably smell/taste (by your own words, see below), or it could be so minor that it's "no big deal" to you.

I'm 68 and I've retired from judging because I can't taste or smell reliably any more.  Some days it's fine, others it fades in and out.  I finally decided it wasn't  vair to comp entrants to judge their beer if I wasn't t my best.  So I'd say it depends on why you want BJCP certification.  If it's for your own enjoyment and edification, go for it.  If it's so you can judge, be realisitic.

My senses are still good enough most of the time to tell. Abd while it may make a theoretical difference to the yeast,  it seems to make no difference to the beer.  Try it yourself and tell me if I'm wrong.

[hopfenundmalz]

Am I wrong here? For some reason I was under the impression that S. Cerevisiae, Mark Van Ditta and YeastWhisperer were all names used on different forums but the same person?

Same person. Some of the posts to Jim's beer kit were just about identical. I think he link from here to there once.

[ynotbrusum]

Why not shake, add yeast and shake again?

[denny]

Why not shake, add yeast and shake again?

If you get the same amount of air as you would with the other method, that's fine.

[Frankenbrew]

Why not shake, add yeast and shake again?

Yes, that sounds like it would work just fine.