[Frankenbrew]

But, leave the cap on for 30 minutes after your last shake!

[MattyAHA]

i did 2 beers recently with the SNS method and all i can say is the beers started fermenting nice and fast and are looking very healthy, i have not tasted the beers yet but i have high hopes and it made this process alot more enjoyable and simple so if the beer turns out as expected im 100% sold on the SNS method

[MattyAHA]

i know this thread is dead but wanted to follow up with my experience with the SNS method, First off i'm sold on this method, my double IPA went from 1.072 to 1.009 in 12 days, no off flavors, very clean  thumbs up

[denny]

i know this thread is dead but wanted to follow up with my experience with the SNS method, First off i'm sold on this method, my double IPA went from 1.072 to 1.009 in 12 days, no off flavors, very clean  thumbs up

I just made an SNS starter with an 11 month old smack pack of 1450.  Had big time fermentation in 12 hours.  Haven't check the gravity yet, but it appears to be done.

[MattyAHA]

i know this thread is dead but wanted to follow up with my experience with the SNS method, First off i'm sold on this method, my double IPA went from 1.072 to 1.009 in 12 days, no off flavors, very clean  thumbs up

I just made an SNS starter with an 11 month old smack pack of 1450.  Had big time fermentation in 12 hours.  Haven't check the gravity yet, but it appears to be done.

yeah the yeast rip when they are healthy , Thanks Denny cause you are the one who brought this method to my attention cheers

[MattyAHA]

i'm testing the waters, just finished 4.5 gallon 1.060 dortmunder, curious to see if a 1 liter SNS will get the job done, little paranoid but i took the leap of faith, lets see what happens \m/ \m/

[BrewBama]

I think you’ll be pleased.


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[ynotbrusum]

I used to make a 2.5 gallon batch, then step up on the first re-pitch to 5 gallons and then re-pitch serially into my standard 10 gallon batches, but with SNS, I make a 5 gallon batch pitching one package of SNS yeast starter into it and then step up to a 10 gallon batch from there.  No problems yet.

Cheers!

[Saccharomyces]

I know that this thread is old, but I would like to clarify things.  I developed this method in 1993 when I was younger and much stronger.  In reality, it was serendipity.  I was not setting out to create a starter method.  I was just trying to get my yeast mixed well with the starter medium.  Having a been a body builder for most of my twenties, I still very strong, so I shook the starter like it owed me money.  I started with a repurposed half-gallon glass Cran Raspberry bottle.  When I moved up to a repurposed gallon glass apple juice jug, I noticed that the starter medium foamed like crazy (I was making quart starters at the time, so ratio was four to one). I also noticed that fermentations experienced shorter lag periods, attenuated better, and had few, if any off-favors. It was not until I started to think of the problem in engineering terms that I understood what was going on.  Foam has a very high specific surface area compared to liquid; therefore, it is easier for oxygen to diffuse into it.  In essence, I stumbled across an improved, low cost starter method just because I was strong. It took engineering and science to understand why the method worked well.

In reality, if one shakes and pitches, one has to shake a second time to disperse the yeast cells.  I have debated whether or not the heavy initial shake damages cells, but empirical knowledge tells me that shaking to disperse the yeast cells is part of the magic.  Inoculating and shaking often leads to a shorter starter lag time.  The same thing happens when a carboy is shaken after the yeast culture has been pitched.  In the early days, I used a repurposed 6.5 gallon acid bottle for a primary.  Unlike the 6.5 gallon acid bottles that were sold after the homebrew trade became more established, the early bottles came with a screw-on cap, which allows the bottle to be laid on its side and rolled back-and-forth vigorously after the culture had been pitched.  That step definitely shortened lag times by at least an hour.

[BrewBama]

... shortened lag times ...

Mark, I’ve often wanted to get your take on lag time.

I understand viability is absolutely important but I’ve heard some homebrewers swing the pendulum so far as to say that cell count is nearly irrelevant and viability of even a small colony is ALL that matters as long as it’s viable.

I realize you could theoretically add one viable yeast cell in a wort and eventually it would create enough biomass to ferment to beer. Of course, this would take forever as the mother of all lag times.

The question(s):

Pitch rate calculators prescribe a certain pitch rate based on mfr recommendations. Are these calculators irrelevant based on SnS viability starters? ...or does the ‘solution to pollution is dilution’ mantra apply?

What do you consider a reasonable lag time?

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[ynotbrusum]

Mark can correct me (and I may be wrong), but "vitality" in this sense is key - i.e., the starter yeast is firmly involved in fermentation at the point of introduction to the main wort, so the yeast cell numbers are not as critical.  "Viability" to me is more of a determination that a yeast cell "can ferment" (as in live to metabolize and reproduce), rather than how well it is prepared to be introduced to the final medium.

Maybe it is just semantics, so please don't take me wrong as to intentions on this question.

[Saccharomyces]

The question(s):

Pitch rate calculators prescribe a certain pitch rate based on mfr recommendations. Are these calculators irrelevant based on SnS viability starters? ...or does the ‘solution to pollution is dilution’ mantra apply?

What do you consider a reasonable lag time?

Given that a 19L (5-gallon) batch needs approximately 3.8 trillion cells to reach maximum cell density and the average 1 liter starter contains 200 billion cells, we need to increase the cell count by a factor of 19 (3.8 trillion divided by 200 billion).  However, since yeast cell growth is exponential and not multiplicative (yeast cells grow at a rate of 2^n, where the symbol "^" denotes raised to the power of), we are looking log(19) / log(2)  = 4.25 (rounded up to 5) replication periods.  The average replication period for yeast is 90 minutes, so the average exponential growth period is 5 * 90 / 60  = 7.5 hours.  What figure means is that the average culture that is pitched at high krausen should start to produce a head at around 12 hours +/- 2 after pitching.  If it is taking more than 12 hours for a fermentation to reach that point either the initial cell count is low or the yeast was not healthy when pitched; therefore, requiring longer lag and exponential growth phases.  All dry strains that are not old should easily reach this point in 12 hours if enough cells are pitched.  My take on strains such as Lallemand BRY-97 is that it needs two packs per 5 gallons because the viable yeast cell count is low at the time of pitching (i.e., its shelf life is shorter than most of the other dry strains).  Something about that yeast strain is odd.

[Saccharomyces]

Reading the link at Jim’s and the instructions Mark posted here on AHA, I never understood why folks shake then add yeast when he describes adding yeast then shaking.

Maybe just semantics. I guess it works either way.

The Shaken, not Stirred method was the result of serendipity.  I did not set out to create a new way to create a starter.  It was just the result of me being very strong at the time and wanting to disperse my yeasst culture in my starter. If one desires to shake until the media is mostly foam before pitching that is cool; however, the lag time will increase by a few minutes to an hour or so as the yeast strain distributes in the solution.  There is no magic in this method from a shaking point of view. The method works because it provides a high-level of oxygenation at the beginning where it is needed followed by pitching at the optimum time (brewers who think that yeast cells require continuous oxygenation in a solution that is above the Crabtee threshold are misinformed).  I was talking to Denny via the back channel on this site about how unnecessarily complex the hobby has become (trust me, the homebrewing community used to be a lot more fun and non-competitive in the early days than it is today).  People honestly believe that they need a stir plate to create a healthy yeast culture, which is complete nonsense.  Finding a way to oxygenate the wort before pitching or shortly thereafter and pitching at high krausen is what maters. 

I am currently in a discussion with a Ph.D. physiologist on a different topic, but what he fails to understand and what most seasoned engineers know is that the real world rarely matches the scientific model.  Crap happens that throws one's model off as there are outliers that mess things up.  That is why engineering and medicine are theory plus practice disciplines.  Theory gets us on the page, but practice is what determines how well the theory matches real world conditions.  As much as we want to model cells, there is genetic variance that does not match our thesis from which we can learn if our mind is open to new information.  Anything more than that borders on arrogance that reveals a person's insecurity.  Trust me, I work at a research university where this level of arrogance is on display every day.

[Richard]

I tried the SNS method a couple of times, but was not sure that I was pitching at the proper time, and I didn't see any improvement that seemed worthwhile to me. I was using a 1 gallon plastic milk jug rather than a glass container. Is that OK or is there some reason it is not recommended?

I generally start brewing around 8 or 9 in the morning and pitch my yeast around 2 or 3 PM. I made the SNS starter first thing in the morning, but that was only 6-8 hours before pitching. To pitch at 12 hours would require me to wake up in the middle of the night to make the starter or delay pitching for hours after I have finished brewing. Neither of those options is convenient for me. If I make a starter ahead of time and refrigerate it then it is one less thing I have to do on brew day and I know it will be ready when I want to pitch it.

[BrewBama]

Thank you!  As always great answer. You’ve explained ‘viability + pitch rate matters’ and recommended lag time very clearly.

With Bry-97, which is the strain I use +90% of the time, following the mfr pitch rate calculator I get ~14-18 hrs ‘blip’ on my constant read floating hydrometer.  I consider this blip the start. I could very well have foam at that point or earlier but I can’t see the fermentation because I use a stainless bucket.

It took some time but I’ve gained confidence in that strain.  I pitch as the fermenter is filling along with 2 tsp Fermax nutrient. Using this method I get a very predictable start, complete job, and fast finish. The results are everything I am looking for: clean and clear.


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