Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Pellet vs Dried Whole  (Read 5285 times)

Offline Silver_Is_Money

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
    • Mash Made Easy, MashRite, LLC
Re: Pellet vs Dried Whole
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2020, 02:34:01 am »
This guy did a carefully undertaken study which revealed that at only about 25 minutes of boil time, T-90 pellet hops have already released essentially all of the IBU's to the wort that they are ever going to release.  For whole hops you would expect this to require more on the order of from 60 to 90 minutes of boil time.  The IBU release for pellets therefore takes place vastly sooner than for whole, and this must be true for the really short boil times as well, making it likely that the old adage of 10% more across the board IBU's for pellets is clearly obsolete, and for really short duration remaining boil times it may even be more like magnitudes more.

https://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/a/c/3acf77263e1cd1d4/EBC_2018_Hamilton.pdf?c_id=25172141&cs_id=25172141&expiration=1583772119&hwt=874cf1d1b35efb22db5ef7bfbb612229

I just revisited this data, and it can be seen that in only 1 minute of boiling a T-90 pellet has already released roughly 62% of its maximum averaged IBU release potential.  For the Tinseth calculator this IBU release is computed to be roughly 3% to 4% at 1 minute depending upon who's implementation of Tinseth one chooses to use.  That's a whopping error for pellets.  The magnitude for which is 15X to 20X.

Tinseth never tested a pellet hop.  His formula is useless for application to pellets.  And the same is likely true for Rager, Daniels, and others.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 02:46:37 am by Silver_Is_Money »

Fire Rooster

  • Guest
Re: Pellet vs Dried Whole
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2020, 04:12:05 am »
This guy did a carefully undertaken study which revealed that at only about 25 minutes of boil time, T-90 pellet hops have already released essentially all of the IBU's to the wort that they are ever going to release.  For whole hops you would expect this to require more on the order of from 60 to 90 minutes of boil time.  The IBU release for pellets therefore takes place vastly sooner than for whole, and this must be true for the really short boil times as well, making it likely that the old adage of 10% more across the board IBU's for pellets is clearly obsolete, and for really short duration remaining boil times it may even be more like magnitudes more.

https://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/a/c/3acf77263e1cd1d4/EBC_2018_Hamilton.pdf?c_id=25172141&cs_id=25172141&expiration=1583772119&hwt=874cf1d1b35efb22db5ef7bfbb612229

I just revisited this data, and it can be seen that in only 1 minute of boiling a T-90 pellet has already released roughly 62% of its maximum averaged IBU release potential.  For the Tinseth calculator this IBU release is computed to be roughly 3% to 4% at 1 minute depending upon who's implementation of Tinseth one chooses to use.  That's a whopping error for pellets.  The magnitude for which is 15X to 20X.

Tinseth never tested a pellet hop.  His formula is useless for application to pellets.  And the same is likely true for Rager, Daniels, and others.

Thank you very much, oddly, most of this is starting to make sense to me.

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11348
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: Pellet vs Dried Whole
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2020, 08:36:41 am »
This guy did a carefully undertaken study which revealed that at only about 25 minutes of boil time, T-90 pellet hops have already released essentially all of the IBU's to the wort that they are ever going to release.  For whole hops you would expect this to require more on the order of from 60 to 90 minutes of boil time.  The IBU release for pellets therefore takes place vastly sooner than for whole, and this must be true for the really short boil times as well, making it likely that the old adage of 10% more across the board IBU's for pellets is clearly obsolete, and for really short duration remaining boil times it may even be more like magnitudes more.

https://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/a/c/3acf77263e1cd1d4/EBC_2018_Hamilton.pdf?c_id=25172141&cs_id=25172141&expiration=1583772119&hwt=874cf1d1b35efb22db5ef7bfbb612229

I just revisited this data, and it can be seen that in only 1 minute of boiling a T-90 pellet has already released roughly 62% of its maximum averaged IBU release potential.  For the Tinseth calculator this IBU release is computed to be roughly 3% to 4% at 1 minute depending upon who's implementation of Tinseth one chooses to use.  That's a whopping error for pellets.  The magnitude for which is 15X to 20X.

Tinseth never tested a pellet hop.  His formula is useless for application to pellets.  And the same is likely true for Rager, Daniels, and others.

Great info! Thanks for sharing!

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4743
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Pellet vs Dried Whole
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2020, 08:53:39 am »
The Tinseth equation is still the best thing we've got, pellets or not.  It's pretty darn accurate to my taste buds, assuming about a 10% difference between it and whole hops.  So be very careful not to dismiss Tinseth... because there really is NOTHING ELSE BETTER out there anywhere.  Just because it all began with whole hops doesn't mean you'll have any idea what the frick you're doing on bittering with pellets if you blindly throw out Tinseth and just use somebody else's wild guesses or your own guesses.  Tinseth is still "close enough for most intents & purposes" in my experience, which = "good enough" to meet my own satisfaction.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still using Tinseth, dammit, and I'd encourage all of you to still do the same, until/unless you can provide something better, in which case, I still probably won't believe you.   ;D

Cheers all.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27233
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Pellet vs Dried Whole
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2020, 09:23:14 am »
The Tinseth equation is still the best thing we've got, pellets or not.  It's pretty darn accurate to my taste buds, assuming about a 10% difference between it and whole hops.  So be very careful not to dismiss Tinseth... because there really is NOTHING ELSE BETTER out there anywhere.  Just because it all began with whole hops doesn't mean you'll have any idea what the frick you're doing on bittering with pellets if you blindly throw out Tinseth and just use somebody else's wild guesses or your own guesses.  Tinseth is still "close enough for most intents & purposes" in my experience, which = "good enough" to meet my own satisfaction.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still using Tinseth, dammit, and I'd encourage all of you to still do the same, until/unless you can provide something better, in which case, I still probably won't believe you.   ;D

Cheers all.

I've used Tinseth to estimate IBU for both pellets and whole hops.  Despite all the reasons it shouldn't work (remember, I'm the guy who broke the news about it) when I had those beers analyzed they were remarkankky close to the estimates.  Be careful not to let what you read influence real life.  Test it yourself.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

TXFlyGuy

  • Guest
Re: Pellet vs Dried Whole
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2020, 08:06:47 pm »
Hmmmmm...guess I'm not very sophisticated. We just use the IBU Calculator on Home Brewing's website. It has a pellet / whole hop selection.