[Visor]

  Regarding your disappointment with the gelatin you used in the primary Dave, I've never seen any benefit when using gelatin at room or cellar temperatures. I dose my beers with gelatin just before they go into the fridge to cold crash and normally have good results.

[dmtaylor]

I agree.  It doesn't taste like a Kolsch.  Very tasty but not a Kolsch.  In fact, I've even decided to recategorize mine with K-97 as an American Blonde Ale instead, for purposes of entering into BJCP comps or whatever.  Just a clean, refreshing, lager-like ale.

In that case, is there any advantage over 34/70 or S-189 lager yeast?

No "advantage".  It's just a lot different.  More bready.  If you want bready character, there are no better yeasts I know of than K-97 and 1007.

  Regarding your disappointment with the gelatin you used in the primary Dave, I've never seen any benefit when using gelatin at room or cellar temperatures. I dose my beers with gelatin just before they go into the fridge to cold crash and normally have good results.

Perhaps I should move more bottles into the refrigerator then.  Regardless, I think it's looking a lot more clear now anyway compared to the day I bottled.  Thanks for the input.

[BrewBama]

...

Isn't K-97 closely related to WY-1007? Dmtaylor shows that on his speadsheet. 1007 is from Zum Uerige, a very clean yeast.

Yes, reportedly K97 has the same heritage as 1007...an alt yeast.  ...

I am planning to use the K-97 in my fridge for a Zum Uerige style Altbier.


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[ynotbrusum]

I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

[hopfenundmalz]

I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

What I have picked up at Zum Uerige is that the beer is really bitte, but it doesn't linger too long. Keep the sulfates modest to achieve that.

[BrewBama]

I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

What I have picked up at Zum Uerige is that the beer is really bitte, but it doesn't linger too long. Keep the sulfates modest to achieve that.

Auto corrupt makes me think bitter vs please. Though I am sure it is pleasingly bitter.


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[hopfenundmalz]

I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

What I have picked up at Zum Uerige is that the beer is really bitte, but it doesn't linger too long. Keep the sulfates modest to achieve that.

Auto corrupt makes me think bitter vs please. Though I am sure it is pleasingly bitter.


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I think that was just me.

As my friend Gunter, who grew up in Duesseldorf used to say, "Zum Uerige is intensely bitter, but after 5 or 6 you don't notice".

[hopfenundmalz]

I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

What I have picked up at Zum Uerige is that the beer is really bitte, but it doesn't linger too long. Keep the sulfates modest to achieve that.

Auto corrupt makes me think bitter vs please. Though I am sure it is pleasingly bitter.


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I think that was just me.

As my friend Gunter, who grew up in Duesseldorf used to say, "Zum Uerige is intensely bitter, but after 5 or 6 you don't notice".

Oh it is about 1.048 OG, and some sources say 50-55 IBU. It is highly attenuated.

[dmtaylor]

Okay, I just compared my split batch with S-189 versus K-97 and I have lots of comments now:

K-97 is yeasty, leaves a long standing aftertaste of yeast -- ick, I can still taste it 10 minutes after the last sip.  The beer tastes great in your mouth, but I'm not liking the prolonged yeasty aftertaste.  Haze is still noticeable after almost 2 weeks in the bottle, even with gelatin.  Also a slight tartness, which I also associate with presence of yeast.  All this might settle out over time.  I think I will wait another few weeks to let it settle before popping the next bottle.

Other than that, K-97 also has a super creamy long standing head, outstanding retention, and a much softer creamier mouthfeel than the S-189.  It also has an elegant lager-like flavor while in the mouth.  Just that yeasty aftertaste I can't get over.

S-189, on the other hand, is super clean in both aroma and flavor, crystal clear, with a rockier head with much lower retention.  Bitterness is far more pronounced, and I might even call it harsh.  pH is on the high end by design so at this I'm not super surprised.  But noticeably more bitter than the K-97 version.  Flavor, meanwhile tastes like CANDY compared to K-97.  Sweet-ish and cherry-ish candy.  Also sort of like caramel.  But also more bitter.  If that makes any sense.  The candy / caramel no doubt comes from my addition of 2.5% Gambrinus honey malt, which was a leftover, a couple years old, probably oxidized pretty far.  I get the feeling that S-189 allows the malt profile to stand out boldly, there's like zero yeast-derived flavors or esters here, only malt-derived stuff.  Very very clean.

Both beers are also noticeably orange in color, not yellow.  In future I think I'll add zero caramel malts to my light beers -- that was a dumb idea.

Overall, my favorite would be... neither.  Or maybe S-189.  But it's still not as spectacular as Wyeast 2206 or WLP833.  Just really really clean... and as such, kind of boring.  The candy/caramel thing in the S-189 version is weird, though not totally unpleasant (again I think this is my fault), and the yeasty aftertaste of the K-97 is super annoying to me.  Maybe I'm just overly sensitive to yeast?  I mean, tastes like bread & Braunschweiger.  I love bread and I love Braunschweiger... but not so much in my beer.

Bottom line: I won't really hesitate to use S-189 again.  But K-97........ well..... time will tell.  If the yeast gets out of the way, then I think it will be a more tasty beer.  I like how it tastes while in the mouth.  It's the yeasty aftertaste that drives me crazy.  If that goes away, I'll be real happy with it.  It's creamy, smooth, not fruity, no diacetyl, nothing bad but the yeast and poor flocculation.  Reminds me so much of 1007 and 2565.  I'll give it some more time and opportunity to prove itself worthy before passing final judgment.

Cheers all.

EDIT:

Recipe and picture at link below.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=3331.msg436395#msg436395

[Fire Rooster]

Good read & review ! 

[TXFlyGuy]

Dave - Thanks for the detailed write up. With this info, we will use Wyeast Kolsch next week in our split batch. The other one getting the famous W-34/70.
The grain bill will be 95% Pils, with 5% Vienna.
A detailed post will be made on our results.

The results seem to mirror yours...

My Impressions: I was easily able to tell these beers apart just by appearance, as the beer fermented with US-05 was much clearer than the K-97 beer. I was also able to identify the unique sample consistently over a series of triangle tests. To my palate, the beer fermented with K-97 was a bit more classically expressive and had a bit more character than the US-05, giving it in edge when it terms of personal preference. I also appreciated how the K-97 held a persistent head and left nice lacing on the glass. However, there was nothing wrong with the US-05 beer, I enjoyed drinking both just fine.

For more reading on K-97:
http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/

[Iliff Ave]

Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

[dmtaylor]

Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

[hopfenundmalz]

I have a zum Uerige knockoff doing the final lagering at 30F. I used WY-1007, which takes time to clear. This should speed the clearing.

[BrewBama]

Dave, It will be interesting to read your impression after a few wks in the cold to see if it clears, and if so, the resulting taste difference.  I’ve used the yeast in the past but can’t seem to find my notes on that beer. (I’ve had BeerSmith help me by deleting some records)

I plan to use my upcoming k-97 batch in an Alt at a higher avg fermentation temp (60*F) and a higher pitch rate (1 gram per liter wort).  My SOP is a month from keg to tap so we’ll see if any of that makes a difference.

I have a zum Uerige knockoff doing the final lagering at 30F. I used WY-1007, which takes time to clear. This should speed the clearing.

I think I read that you were ~3/4 of the way to a pretty close rendition of Zum Uerige. If you don’t mind sharing I’d like to get your notes on tweeks you made thru the process.

I plan 96.2% Pils, 2.2% Cara III, and 1.6% Carafa Spec III.  I am concerned it still won’t be dark enough.

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