[BrewBama]

At AHA conference there was a presentation by Fermentis. What do you do with the OEM taste panel that says there’s no perceptible difference in taste between a 34/70 lager fermented at 50*F and one fermented at 60*F?  I suppose these are professional tasters in a professionally run taste panel.

Maybe your friends’ lagers were fermented with a different yeast?  ...or possibly other issues.

I’ve used 34/70 as high as 62*F with great results.

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[skyler]

Most were done with 34/70, but I recall at least one was S-189 (same problem). Maybe some were a few degrees warmer than 60F or they underpitched or something (I recall one guy insisting that starters weren't necessary and that 2 packs of dry yeast wasn't necessary because of something they read), but I have tasted the same problem many times to where I am able to spot it: "you fermented a lager at ale temps?" It is as obvious to me as, "you pitched one vial of liquid yeast without a starter and fermented it at ambient in a room temperature room?" I know exactly how that tastes because of how many times I encountered it -- brewers didn't know that fermentation temp and ambient temp were two different things and they underpitched because they didn't know/understand/want to build a starter AND were scared away from dry yeast by the LHBS. Or how about using old LME and getting a tart "extract twang?" All of us probably know that flaw by taste because of how we started brewing. That's how ubiquitous bad lager is at homebrew events now.

[tommymorris]

I find that the forums and the internet in general are full of good information and bad. It’s important to apply a filter. The best filter is trying things for yourself and sticking with what tastes good to you.

[MNWayne]

+1

[dmtaylor]

Having now tasted a ton of warm-fermented lager that people made because of the XBMT on the topic, I can pretty confidently say that they all sucked. If some people can't taste the difference between fermentation flaws in a lager and a well made lager, they probably shouldn't be taste-testing beer. But that XBMT has generated so many clicks because it tells people that what they want to hear is true.

I find that the forums and the internet in general are full of good information and bad. It%u2019s important to apply a filter. The best filter is trying things for yourself and sticking with what tastes good to you.

Cheers to all of this.   

[dmtaylor]

The forums (except for Reddit, where it's 95% bloggers and newbies) and clubs are the best places for advice.

When I look at my homebrewing notes, that other 5% of /r/homebrewing has been useful to me.  A while back, there were some interesting (and original) posts on cold extraction.  Also some noteworthy posts on extending "15 minute pale ale" to other styles. 

For those enjoyed the recipe analysis in Designing Great Beers, there's this article from a couple of years back with more recent data:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/2g7erc/nhc_gold_medal_winning_recipe_breakdown_20042014/

THANK YOU!

[joe_meadmaker]

Thanks for the additional input guys.

@skyler - I definitely see where you're coming from based on the experiences you've had.  For me the exBEERiments have always been entertaining reads with details of something I might experience if following their procedures.  But I agree they should not be viewed as the final word on how something should be done.

And thanks to BrewnWKopperKat for that link.  Very cool!

Cheers guys!

[Kevin]

For me the exBEERiments have always been entertaining reads with details of something I might experience if following their procedures.  But I agree they should not be viewed as the final word on how something should be done.

I don't read the articles but I do listen to the Brulosophy podcast 5 days a week while at the gym. In no way do they ever suggest that what they do is even close to the final way on how something should be done. They say it so often it amazes me how often this sentiment pops up. My theory is that when someone has been using a particular brewing technique for so long... invested so much time, effort and perhaps money into it... that when they hear someone suggest their technique may not be as important as thought - they react to protect or defend their choices.

[skyler]

I don't read the articles but I do listen to the Brulosophy podcast 5 days a week while at the gym. In no way do they ever suggest that what they do is even close to the final way on how something should be done. They say it so often it amazes me how often this sentiment pops up. My theory is that when someone has been using a particular brewing technique for so long... invested so much time, effort and perhaps money into it... that when they hear someone suggest their technique may not be as important as thought - they react to protect or defend their choices.

I don't listen to their podcast, but the end of every xbmt is a scientific taste test followed by final thoughts. I actually like the articles by themselves, but that supposedly scientific taste test is 100% expressly presented as legitimate scientific evidence and not, "this is what 15 drunk guys thought in the middle of a ub meeting." That it doesn't trick experienced brewers doesn't matter because it does trick newbies, who drop out of the hobby after dumping $100 into a double IPL that tasted like rotten watermelon. Fake science is the problem here because it's fake. If they want to get people to stop saying that they act like they're the final word, they need to change the way they present their taste test results.

[BrewBama]

"this is what 15 drunk guys thought in the middle of a ub meeting."

I again ask

What do you do with the OEM taste panel that says there’s no perceptible difference in taste between a 34/70 lager fermented at 50*F and one fermented at 60*F?  I suppose these are professional tasters in a professionally run taste panel.

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[hopfenundmalz]

I don't read the articles but I do listen to the Brulosophy podcast 5 days a week while at the gym. In no way do they ever suggest that what they do is even close to the final way on how something should be done. They say it so often it amazes me how often this sentiment pops up. My theory is that when someone has been using a particular brewing technique for so long... invested so much time, effort and perhaps money into it... that when they hear someone suggest their technique may not be as important as thought - they react to protect or defend their choices.

I don't listen to their podcast, but the end of every xbmt is a scientific taste test followed by final thoughts. I actually like the articles by themselves, but that supposedly scientific taste test is 100% expressly presented as legitimate scientific evidence and not, "this is what 15 drunk guys thought in the middle of a ub meeting." That it doesn't trick experienced brewers doesn't matter because it does trick newbies, who drop out of the hobby after dumping $100 into a double IPL that tasted like rotten watermelon. Fake science is the problem here because it's fake. If they want to get people to stop saying that they act like they're the final word, they need to change the way they present their taste test results.

From my professional experience, you can get different answers using different juries to evaluate your test item. For what I worked on, automotive N&V, you need someone with good hearing, or sensitive to vibrations. Tasting panels at larger breweries have tested the panel members for their taste sensitivities, and have a panel that covers the flavors that they are evaluating. I would like to see a comparison of their usual text method to having the beers evaluated by a trained tasting panel.

[hopfenundmalz]

"this is what 15 drunk guys thought in the middle of a ub meeting."

I again ask

What do you do with the OEM taste panel that says there’s no perceptible difference in taste between a 34/70 lager fermented at 50*F and one fermented at 60*F?  I suppose these are professional tasters in a professionally run taste panel.

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I assume you were referring to the Fermentis study. I saw the presentation at Providence. There were multiple trials, analytical data for the different fermentations. The analytic data did show esters increasing up to threshold levels with temperature, but at worst case just reaching threshold. I came away thinking this would work, but I still Ferment at 50F with 34/70.

[dmtaylor]

... it does trick newbies, who drop out of the hobby after ...

Any evidence (even anecdotal ) to support this claim?

Evidence is rampant IMO. Well the fooling part. Not sure about the dropout part.

[Kevin]

 but that supposedly scientific taste test is 100% expressly presented as legitimate scientific evidence

Where in the hell have you ever read or heard them say their results are "100% expressly presented as legitimate scientific evidence"? What a crock. They present the results of one single triangle test. Nothing more and nothing less. If you are reading more into that then you have some serious bias you aren't sharing.

[fredthecat]

skyler's main point is what i am saying. to restate, i think their methodology is great, and nothing my bottom-line focused homebrewing could come close to, but i think their tasting impartiality is blinded by this little "tasting triangle" thing they have going on.

i was a beer con-noy-ser before i started brewing, and before it was easy to get microbrews, and at the time when if you asked if a bar had anything belgian you would get a funny look. ontario where i am located is far, very far, very very far away from the quality of the more famous US states for brewing, but the stuff that is allowed to be released here is straight up shockingly bad and yet it is devoured by this new demographic of homebrewers and modern beer connoisseurs. so frankly i dont trust their taste buds because, re: the example someone is mentioning of W34/70 fermented at 60F, i keep tasting "lagers" released by nanobreweries and i honestly dont believe or at least cant tell if they are actually lager yeast fermented, and certainly not properly lagered at cold temps.

i have a discerning palate. sorry!