Author Topic: SafeLager W-34/70 Question  (Read 4559 times)

Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2020, 12:58:29 pm »
Do people aerate with dry yeast?  In theory you don't need to, but regardless of how the beer turns out it could change the lag time.

I don’t understand - why would aeration NOT be necessary with a dry yeast over a liquid yeast?  I aerate my wort regardless of the type of yeast I use.  Is it not necessary to aerate with dry yeast?
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2020, 12:59:45 pm »
Per the Lallemand website, their Fermaid K should be stirred into the Wort just prior to yeast pitching.  I believe that boiling it destroys much if not all of it.

Quote
For normal applications, the recommended addition rate of Fermaid K is 25 grams per 100 liters.
Fermaid K should be dispersed (stirred) into the wort just prior to pitching the yeast.

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2020, 01:01:46 pm »
I don’t understand - why would aeration NOT be necessary with a dry yeast over a liquid yeast?  I aerate my wort regardless of the type of yeast I use.  Is it not necessary to aerate with dry yeast?

Both Lallemand and Fermentis now advise that it is not necessary at all to aerate the Wort prior to pitching their dry yeast products.  That requirement is now the sole domain of liquid yeast.  They are both OK with direct pitching without rehydration now also, after both did studies which concluded that there is little real world benefit gained by rehydration (after decades of saying that rehydration was a critical requirement).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 01:05:21 pm by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline Kevin

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2020, 01:12:40 pm »
Both Lallemand and Fermentis now advise that it is not necessary at all to aerate the Wort prior to pitching their dry yeast products.  That requirement is now the sole domain of liquid yeast.  They are both OK with direct pitching without rehydration now also, after both did studies which concluded that there is little real world benefit gained by rehydration (after decades of saying that rehydration was a critical requirement).

Old habits die hard and especially in the homebrew community it seems that if you challenge a method that someone has been using for a long time... often a method taught to them by someone they consider "expert", they tend to react defensively.
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Offline narvin

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2020, 01:16:15 pm »
Do people aerate with dry yeast?  In theory you don't need to, but regardless of how the beer turns out it could change the lag time.

I don’t understand - why would aeration NOT be necessary with a dry yeast over a liquid yeast?  I aerate my wort regardless of the type of yeast I use.  Is it not necessary to aerate with dry yeast?

It has to do with how the yeast is dried.  From lallemand:

Quote
BRY-97 yeast has been conditioned to survive rehydration. The yeast
contains an adequate reserve of carbohydrates and unsaturated
fatty acids to achieve active growth. It is unnecessary to aerate
wort upon first use.

Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2020, 01:17:41 pm »
I don’t understand - why would aeration NOT be necessary with a dry yeast over a liquid yeast?  I aerate my wort regardless of the type of yeast I use.  Is it not necessary to aerate with dry yeast?

Both Lallemand and Fermentis now advise that it is not necessary at all to aerate the Wort prior to pitching their dry yeast products.  That requirement is now the sole domain of liquid yeast.  They are both OK with direct pitching without rehydration now also, after both did studies which concluded that there is little real world benefit gained by rehydration (after decades of saying that rehydration was a critical requirement).

That’s fascinating information.  Do either of these manufacturers give a logical reason why it’s not necessary?  As I understood, oxygen is required for the yeast cells to multiply.  Now you have me thinking....
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2020, 01:23:26 pm »
That’s fascinating information.  Do either of these manufacturers give a logical reason why it’s not necessary?  As I understood, oxygen is required for the yeast cells to multiply.  Now you have me thinking....

Aeration is required such that certain aerobically produced lipids called sterols which are required of the yeast as precursors in order for them to produce alcohol get adequately produced by the yeast.  No sterols, no alcohol production.  Both dry yeast manufacturers state that fully sufficient of these requisit sterols are present within each package of their dry yeast.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 01:32:48 pm by Silver_Is_Money »

TXFlyGuy

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2020, 01:52:51 pm »
The info is readily available on their website:

https://fermentis.com/en/tips-n-tricks/for-you-brewers/

Offline BrewBama

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2020, 02:06:48 pm »
...and they state no nutrients needed:


I haven’t seen that no nutrients are needed in their information. Maybe I missed it.


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Offline denny

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2020, 02:16:05 pm »
Do people aerate with dry yeast?  In theory you don't need to, but regardless of how the beer turns out it could change the lag time.

Nope, I don't.
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Offline denny

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2020, 02:17:41 pm »
Do people aerate with dry yeast?  In theory you don't need to, but regardless of how the beer turns out it could change the lag time.

I don’t understand - why would aeration NOT be necessary with a dry yeast over a liquid yeast?  I aerate my wort regardless of the type of yeast I use.  Is it not necessary to aerate with dry yeast?

Because when dry yeast is produced, it's growth is stopped during sterols production, so it's loaded with sterols.  The purpose of aeration is to allow the yeast to produce sterols. If they're already there, there's no need for aeration.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2020, 02:19:38 pm »
Per the Lallemand website, their Fermaid K should be stirred into the Wort just prior to yeast pitching.  I believe that boiling it destroys much if not all of it.

Quote
For normal applications, the recommended addition rate of Fermaid K is 25 grams per 100 liters.
Fermaid K should be dispersed (stirred) into the wort just prior to pitching the yeast.

While the Wyeast nutrient I use is supposed to be boiled.
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Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2020, 05:27:28 pm »
Do people aerate with dry yeast?  In theory you don't need to, but regardless of how the beer turns out it could change the lag time.

I don’t understand - why would aeration NOT be necessary with a dry yeast over a liquid yeast?  I aerate my wort regardless of the type of yeast I use.  Is it not necessary to aerate with dry yeast?

Because when dry yeast is produced, it's growth is stopped during sterols production, so it's loaded with sterols.  The purpose of aeration is to allow the yeast to produce sterols. If they're already there, there's no need for aeration.

That makes sense.  I find it odd, however, that this discovery is recent.  I suppose it’s all part of the “science” aspect of this hobby and science is discovering new things every day.
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Offline denny

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2020, 05:43:29 pm »
Do people aerate with dry yeast?  In theory you don't need to, but regardless of how the beer turns out it could change the lag time.

I don’t understand - why would aeration NOT be necessary with a dry yeast over a liquid yeast?  I aerate my wort regardless of the type of yeast I use.  Is it not necessary to aerate with dry yeast?

Because when dry yeast is produced, it's growth is stopped during sterols production, so it's loaded with sterols.  The purpose of aeration is to allow the yeast to produce sterols. If they're already there, there's no need for aeration.

That makes sense.  I find it odd, however, that this discovery is recent.  I suppose it’s all part of the “science” aspect of this hobby and science is discovering new things every day.

I think there are 2 things at work here....the method of producing dry yeast has changed over the last 20 years.  And there's a persistence of dogma in the homebrew world that tends to make many homebrewers resistant to New info.  I know I got a lot of pushback after posting info about rehydration and aeration that came directly f4om biologists with the companies. Many homebrew "experts" simply repeat what they've heard without testing or looking into it.
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TXFlyGuy

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2020, 06:14:48 pm »
...and they state no nutrients needed:


I haven’t seen that no nutrients are needed in their information. Maybe I missed it.

Pg. 13 under tips...Active Dry Yeast is rich enough in lipids and minerals for it's own multiplication process. Also, there is no requirement for adding O2 to the cooled wort.