Author Topic: SafeLager W-34/70 Question  (Read 955 times)

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2020, 01:15:31 AM »
Like Denny I find that dry yeast does not need re-hydration, nor aeration.  Even so, I must admit that in the transfer of wort to the fermenter, there are bubbles that may hold on their surface yeast cells while the bubbles exist, for awhile.  Not sure of the impact of same, but it exists...
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Offline denny

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2020, 04:05:05 PM »
Like Denny I find that dry yeast does not need re-hydration, nor aeration.  Even so, I must admit that in the transfer of wort to the fermenter, there are bubbles that may hold on their surface yeast cells while the bubbles exist, for awhile.  Not sure of the impact of same, but it exists...

Agreed.  While I don't do a separate aeration step, I do pump my wort into the fermenter.  I'm certain that gives me at least some aeration.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2020, 01:16:25 AM »
Never saw that before.  I really like the character of 940.  I have used S23 but never considered it close to the character of 940 but I should try it again.  Most 34/70 brewers I know say the flavor characteristics of it are very similar to 2124 and I thought Diamond was too.  2124 has been a favorite lager yeast of mine for a very long time and I love the aroma of a beer made with it.  Then again, I could say that about a number of others too.  Cheers BB.

I have info from the manufacturers that both 34/70 and Diamnond are related to 2124.
Do you remember talking on the Blue Board about how Fermentis and Lallemand did not specifically say it was "dry 2124" but I believe they both said that the yeast was from Weihenstephan and also that it was "the most-used yeast strain in the world" which I think Wyeast claims about 2124 as well.  We concluded that they were dried versions of 2124 but we didn't really have any verification of that.

Thank you for bringing this up.  Based on combination of genetic research and your notes above, I wonder whether the W-34/70 and Diamond are not 2124 Bohemian Lager, but rather 2035 American Lager, which is likely from Anheuser-Busch-Budweiser.  How's abouts dats!
Dave

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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2020, 01:35:23 AM »
I wonder whether the W-34/70 and Diamond are not 2124 Bohemian Lager, but rather 2035 American Lager, which is likely from Anheuser-Busch-Budweiser.  How's abouts dats!

Dat otta give it the boost required to make a legitimate claim about being the worlds most used yeast.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2020, 01:43:16 AM »
Never saw that before.  I really like the character of 940.  I have used S23 but never considered it close to the character of 940 but I should try it again.  Most 34/70 brewers I know say the flavor characteristics of it are very similar to 2124 and I thought Diamond was too.  2124 has been a favorite lager yeast of mine for a very long time and I love the aroma of a beer made with it.  Then again, I could say that about a number of others too.  Cheers BB.

I have info from the manufacturers that both 34/70 and Diamnond are related to 2124.
Do you remember talking on the Blue Board about how Fermentis and Lallemand did not specifically say it was "dry 2124" but I believe they both said that the yeast was from Weihenstephan and also that it was "the most-used yeast strain in the world" which I think Wyeast claims about 2124 as well.  We concluded that they were dried versions of 2124 but we didn't really have any verification of that.

Thank you for bringing this up.  Based on combination of genetic research and your notes above, I wonder whether the W-34/70 and Diamond are not 2124 Bohemian Lager, but rather 2035 American Lager, which is likely from Anheuser-Busch-Budweiser.  How's abouts dats!

The yeast Charlie P got from a Coors technician is not at all like those 34/70 derivatives. It has an apple ester note to it ( not Acetaldehyde), not as clean as 34/70. I made a beer with it, not what I'm looking for.

He has said he found out it was isolated by Coors from a keg of Budweiser.
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2020, 01:53:07 AM »
Never saw that before.  I really like the character of 940.  I have used S23 but never considered it close to the character of 940 but I should try it again.  Most 34/70 brewers I know say the flavor characteristics of it are very similar to 2124 and I thought Diamond was too.  2124 has been a favorite lager yeast of mine for a very long time and I love the aroma of a beer made with it.  Then again, I could say that about a number of others too.  Cheers BB.

I have info from the manufacturers that both 34/70 and Diamnond are related to 2124.
Do you remember talking on the Blue Board about how Fermentis and Lallemand did not specifically say it was "dry 2124" but I believe they both said that the yeast was from Weihenstephan and also that it was "the most-used yeast strain in the world" which I think Wyeast claims about 2124 as well.  We concluded that they were dried versions of 2124 but we didn't really have any verification of that.

Thank you for bringing this up.  Based on combination of genetic research and your notes above, I wonder whether the W-34/70 and Diamond are not 2124 Bohemian Lager, but rather 2035 American Lager, which is likely from Anheuser-Busch-Budweiser.  How's abouts dats!

The yeast Charlie P got from a Coors technician is not at all like those 34/70 derivatives. It has an apple ester note to it ( not Acetaldehyde), not as clean as 34/70. I made a beer with it, not what I'm looking for.

He has said he found out it was isolated by Coors from a keg of Budweiser.

And there you go! Apple = Budweiser.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2020, 01:54:51 AM »
Never saw that before.  I really like the character of 940.  I have used S23 but never considered it close to the character of 940 but I should try it again.  Most 34/70 brewers I know say the flavor characteristics of it are very similar to 2124 and I thought Diamond was too.  2124 has been a favorite lager yeast of mine for a very long time and I love the aroma of a beer made with it.  Then again, I could say that about a number of others too.  Cheers BB.

I have info from the manufacturers that both 34/70 and Diamnond are related to 2124.
Do you remember talking on the Blue Board about how Fermentis and Lallemand did not specifically say it was "dry 2124" but I believe they both said that the yeast was from Weihenstephan and also that it was "the most-used yeast strain in the world" which I think Wyeast claims about 2124 as well.  We concluded that they were dried versions of 2124 but we didn't really have any verification of that.

Thank you for bringing this up.  Based on combination of genetic research and your notes above, I wonder whether the W-34/70 and Diamond are not 2124 Bohemian Lager, but rather 2035 American Lager, which is likely from Anheuser-Busch-Budweiser.  How's abouts dats!

The yeast Charlie P got from a Coors technician is not at all like those 34/70 derivatives. It has an apple ester note to it ( not Acetaldehyde), not as clean as 34/70. I made a beer with it, not what I'm looking for.

He has said he found out it was isolated by Coors from a keg of Budweiser.

And there you go! Apple = Budweiser.

Heh... I get banana from Bud.  YMMV
Dave

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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2020, 11:09:10 AM »
Are you guys referring to Cry Havoc from CP as the Bud yeast?  If so, then we really are coming full circle with fermenting lager yeast at ale temps, eh?
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2020, 12:02:24 PM »
Are you guys referring to Cry Havoc from CP as the Bud yeast?  If so, then we really are coming full circle with fermenting lager yeast at ale temps, eh?

I'm not sure, in fact I was wondering the same thing....... Cry Havoc isn't equivalent to Wyeast 2124 or 2035 or 2001, but rather is closest to 2007 Pilsen Lager, genetically.

Of these, I'm truly not certain whether any of these are the true Bud yeast, or which one is actually the closest.  I'm not much of an origins guy, and should probably duck out at this point.
Dave

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Offline denny

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2020, 02:09:11 PM »
Never saw that before.  I really like the character of 940.  I have used S23 but never considered it close to the character of 940 but I should try it again.  Most 34/70 brewers I know say the flavor characteristics of it are very similar to 2124 and I thought Diamond was too.  2124 has been a favorite lager yeast of mine for a very long time and I love the aroma of a beer made with it.  Then again, I could say that about a number of others too.  Cheers BB.

I have info from the manufacturers that both 34/70 and Diamnond are related to 2124.
Do you remember talking on the Blue Board about how Fermentis and Lallemand did not specifically say it was "dry 2124" but I believe they both said that the yeast was from Weihenstephan and also that it was "the most-used yeast strain in the world" which I think Wyeast claims about 2124 as well.  We concluded that they were dried versions of 2124 but we didn't really have any verification of that.

Thank you for bringing this up.  Based on combination of genetic research and your notes above, I wonder whether the W-34/70 and Diamond are not 2124 Bohemian Lager, but rather 2035 American Lager, which is likely from Anheuser-Busch-Budweiser.  How's abouts dats!

Not according to either manufacturer.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2020, 03:17:47 PM »
Never saw that before.  I really like the character of 940.  I have used S23 but never considered it close to the character of 940 but I should try it again.  Most 34/70 brewers I know say the flavor characteristics of it are very similar to 2124 and I thought Diamond was too.  2124 has been a favorite lager yeast of mine for a very long time and I love the aroma of a beer made with it.  Then again, I could say that about a number of others too.  Cheers BB.

I have info from the manufacturers that both 34/70 and Diamnond are related to 2124.
Do you remember talking on the Blue Board about how Fermentis and Lallemand did not specifically say it was "dry 2124" but I believe they both said that the yeast was from Weihenstephan and also that it was "the most-used yeast strain in the world" which I think Wyeast claims about 2124 as well.  We concluded that they were dried versions of 2124 but we didn't really have any verification of that.

Thank you for bringing this up.  Based on combination of genetic research and your notes above, I wonder whether the W-34/70 and Diamond are not 2124 Bohemian Lager, but rather 2035 American Lager, which is likely from Anheuser-Busch-Budweiser.  How's abouts dats!

Not according to either manufacturer.

*shrug*

The fact is, manufacturers have so often times provided data NOT consistent with genetics testing, or vice-versa, more often than not.  So, there's no way to know what to believe or whom to trust.  In the end, just like anything else, each of us will believe whatever we want, or provide an appropriate response of "I don't really know, I can't know for sure", and maybe even "...and neither can you".

Fun stuff to think about though anyway.  I don't mean to dismiss your information as false, not for sure.  I just remain skeptical, because genetically, at least according to one (or two?) tests, 2124 is likely not very closely related to those other yeasts.  Either that, or maybe ALL lager yeasts are so very closely related to one another that they're all basically the same... which personally I do NOT "believe" to be true.

 :o  ;D  8)
Dave

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Offline nassimsultan

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2020, 08:21:22 PM »
I use 3470 regularly and I find that I typically see signs of fermentation in less than 24 hours and often within 18 hours (typically I pitch around 48F and set my fermentation temp to 48F). Here are some thoughts (I’m sure someone else has already posted these, but here it goes anyway)...

Inevitably store bought yeast is going to be a little bit old: there’s a decent lag between when the yeast gets packaged, when it gets delivered to a store, when it gets purchased, and when it finally gets pitched. Because of this, it can take some time for the yeast to “wake up” and the start of fermentation can be sluggish. If you aren’t already making a starter, I highly recommend it. Not only will it wake up your yeast it will also help insure your have enough cells (more on that below). Chris White’s yeast book has wonderful and easy to follow info on making starters. On a related note, if the yeast is being pitched out of a packet that was taken straight from the fridge the yeast will be much colder than your wort and so it will take even longer for it to adjust and with that more of a lag.

Second, I know others have commented on whether or not you need to aerate, but I would highly, highly recommend aerating or, if you can, oxygenating. Once again I will point you in the direction of Chris White’s book in that it highlights the importance to having enough oxygen early in fermentation. Of the handful of times I have had slow starts with 3470, a few of them were due to not enough oxygen.

Finally, double check that you have enough cells. The few times I have had lags with 3470 most of the time it was because I didn’t have enough yeast cells. Mr Malty has a great pitching calculator and Chris White’s book has an easy to follow formula. Insuring you have enough cells will help you start fermentation better. It will also help insure you make excellent lagers. 

Good luck!

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2020, 08:47:55 PM »
Concerning 34/70...

We have used it on two brews. Each time it lagged for a full 36+ hours before active fermentation was observed. Each time we followed Fermentis directions with regards to pitching rate, temperature, etc.

The expire date on the package is September 2021.

Once it gets going it is fine. But it does test your patience.
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Offline denny

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2020, 08:57:52 PM »
I use 3470 regularly and I find that I typically see signs of fermentation in less than 24 hours and often within 18 hours (typically I pitch around 48F and set my fermentation temp to 48F). Here are some thoughts (I’m sure someone else has already posted these, but here it goes anyway)...

Inevitably store bought yeast is going to be a little bit old: there’s a decent lag between when the yeast gets packaged, when it gets delivered to a store, when it gets purchased, and when it finally gets pitched. Because of this, it can take some time for the yeast to “wake up” and the start of fermentation can be sluggish. If you aren’t already making a starter, I highly recommend it. Not only will it wake up your yeast it will also help insure your have enough cells (more on that below). Chris White’s yeast book has wonderful and easy to follow info on making starters. On a related note, if the yeast is being pitched out of a packet that was taken straight from the fridge the yeast will be much colder than your wort and so it will take even longer for it to adjust and with that more of a lag.

Second, I know others have commented on whether or not you need to aerate, but I would highly, highly recommend aerating or, if you can, oxygenating. Once again I will point you in the direction of Chris White’s book in that it highlights the importance to having enough oxygen early in fermentation. Of the handful of times I have had slow starts with 3470, a few of them were due to not enough oxygen.

Finally, double check that you have enough cells. The few times I have had lags with 3470 most of the time it was because I didn’t have enough yeast cells. Mr Malty has a great pitching calculator and Chris White’s book has an easy to follow formula. Insuring you have enough cells will help you start fermentation better. It will also help insure you make excellent lagers. 

Good luck!

Sorry, but you and Chris are both at odds with the people who make the yeast.  Was he talking about dry yeast or liquid yeast?  Also, using vitality starters, I find cell count is a very minor thing.  Chris even confirmed that to me when he said "homebrewers are too hung up on numbers".  I have been pitching cold yeast straight of the fridge for nearly 20 years and I get great performance that way.

Bottom line...do what works for you.

And why the heck is everybody so hung up on a short lag time?
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: SafeLager W-34/70 Question
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2020, 09:15:20 PM »
I like 34/70, never had a long lag time: pitch mid afternoon and always fermenting when I check the next morning. I used diamond lager yeast in a schwartz bier recently with good results.

This mirrors my experience.