[Carson B]

First, if this has been discussed, and I wouldn't be surprised if it has (I just can't find it), apologies and please direct me to the thread.

Main question: is 14 grams of baking soda way too much to raise pH for a 5.5-gallon RIS? That number jumped out from Brunwater and seemed impossible.

Grain bill:

2-row               65% 13.4 lbs
Chocolate         10% 2.06 lbs
Roasted Barley 10% 2.06 lbs
Flaked barley    5%  1.03 lbs
Crystal 60        5%   1.03 lbs
Crystal 120       5%  1.03 lbs

After plugging this into Brunwater, the predicted mash pH is 4.55. I only have baking soda on hand to raise pH, and it calls for 13.9 grams to get the pH up to a reasonable 5.4. This is a bit of a catch-22 because I'm aware how high the crystal/roasted malt content is and understand that will drive pH down. I'm just having issues trusting exactly how much it'll drive it down. I'm hesitant not only because 14 grams seems insane, but also because the last time I followed Brunwater for baking soda pH advice, it overshot by about 0.2.

This addition would apparently yield a hefty 162 ppm Na and 497 bicarbonate with my base water. I'm not as worried about the bicarbonate as I am the sodium.

Will I ruin the batch with 14 grams baking soda? Happy to provide any additional information needed. Thanks! Still trying to figure this water chemistry stuff out.

[skyler]

The bigger issue is that that is WAY too much roasted barley. I trust Bru'n Water from experience, but my own brewing experience tells me 2 lbs chocolate malt and 2 lbs roasted barley is about 2.5-3 lbs too much roasted malt. If your recipe is calculating much more than 40 SRM, it's too dark, and that may be why so much baking soda is needed by Bru'n water.

[BrewBama]

If I was faced with this predicament, I would not use that much Sodium Bicarbonate.

I would look and see if I only mashed the 2-row, then what would the pH look like.

If good, I would mash only the 2-row, vorlauf and lauter to the BK, add the crystal and roast to a bag and steep it in the run off in the kettle.  Kind of a partial mash.

...but then again I wouldn’t use that much flaked barley, roast, or crystal. Maybe .5 lb each.

There may be other options that others come up with. But that’s my .02.


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[Carson B]

Thank you. Like I said, I know the roasted percentage is very high. I've brewed things in this range before and it's just what I personally like. However I've never done it at this scale with this specific water and had this kind of pH issue. If it's a recipe issue, then so be it. I'm just wondering if those mineral contents will produce an off or "salty" beer because of the sodium content.

I do normally trust Brunwater, but I have had issues with it using baking soda before.

[Carson B]

Thanks. This is definitely my fallback for next brew. I do not have a bag to steep the grains in for this time, so I may just roll with it and see what happens. I've increasingly been attracted to these partial mash and/or capped mashes just because of this issue.

If I was faced with this predicament, I would not use that much Sodium Bicarbonate.

I would look and see if I only mashed the 2-row, then what would the pH look like.

If good, I would mash only the 2-row, vorlauf and lauter to the BK, add the crystal and roast to a bag and steep it in the run off in the kettle.  Kind of a partial mash.

There may be other options that others come up with. But that’s my .02.


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[EnkAMania]

The bigger issue is that that is WAY too much roasted barley. I trust Bru'n Water from experience, but my own brewing experience tells me 2 lbs chocolate malt and 2 lbs roasted barley is about 2.5-3 lbs too much roasted malt. If your recipe is calculating much more than 40 SRM, it's too dark, and that may be why so much baking soda is needed by Bru'n water.

I agree with this.  If you cut back the chocolate and the barley to half a pound, it still gives an srm of 32.

[jeffy]

Thanks. This is definitely my fallback for next brew. I do not have a bag to steep the grains in for this time, so I may just roll with it and see what happens. I've increasingly been attracted to these partial mash and/or capped mashes just because of this issue.

If I was faced with this predicament, I would not use that much Sodium Bicarbonate.

I would look and see if I only mashed the 2-row, then what would the pH look like.

If good, I would mash only the 2-row, vorlauf and lauter to the BK, add the crystal and roast to a bag and steep it in the run off in the kettle.  Kind of a partial mash.

There may be other options that others come up with. But that’s my .02.


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You don’t need a bag to steep the grains, just cap the top of the mash with the roasted grains and crystal and then start the sparge.  You won’t get quite as much out of the grains but at least the mash pH and flavors will cooperate.

[Carson B]

The bigger issue is that that is WAY too much roasted barley. I trust Bru'n Water from experience, but my own brewing experience tells me 2 lbs chocolate malt and 2 lbs roasted barley is about 2.5-3 lbs too much roasted malt. If your recipe is calculating much more than 40 SRM, it's too dark, and that may be why so much baking soda is needed by Bru'n water.

I agree with this.  If you cut back the chocolate and the barley to half a pound, it still gives an srm of 32.

Thanks for your reply. As I stated, I know the roasted percentage is high. It's just what I prefer for this specific beer. This is more a water mineral content question than recipe.

[Carson B]

Thanks. This is definitely my fallback for next brew. I do not have a bag to steep the grains in for this time, so I may just roll with it and see what happens. I've increasingly been attracted to these partial mash and/or capped mashes just because of this issue.

If I was faced with this predicament, I would not use that much Sodium Bicarbonate.

I would look and see if I only mashed the 2-row, then what would the pH look like.

If good, I would mash only the 2-row, vorlauf and lauter to the BK, add the crystal and roast to a bag and steep it in the run off in the kettle.  Kind of a partial mash.

There may be other options that others come up with. But that’s my .02.


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You don’t need a bag to steep the grains, just cap the top of the mash with the roasted grains and crystal and then start the sparge.  You won’t get quite as much out of the grains but at least the mash pH and flavors will cooperate.

Thank you. I do plan on trying this soon to get around this specific problem. However, for this brew, the grains are already crushed and mixed in a bag from the homebrew store. Don't have time to separate them 

[mabrungard]

You don’t need a bag to steep the grains, just cap the top of the mash with the roasted grains and crystal and then start the sparge.  You won’t get quite as much out of the grains but at least the mash pH and flavors will cooperate.

Not true. The thing that delaying the roast addition does, is delay the pH drop. Keeping the pH in the proper range during the majority of the mash helps avoid killing your beer's head and body due to excess proteolysis. However, the wort pH will drop just about as low when you do add the roast. It still creates a more acrid and unpleasant roast perception.  A slightly better explanation of the effects of pH on roast flavors is here: https://www.brunwater.com/articles/dutching-beer

One thing that might be an advantage of the late roast addition is it does reduce the overall impact of large doses of roast. This fact needs to be on any brewer's mind if they are using a recipe that was based on delaying or including the roast. If you perform a regular mash with a recipe that was developed for delayed roast addition, it will end up far too roasty. Conversely, applying the delay technique on a recipe that was developed for regular mashing is going to be disappointed with the low roast character.

So pay attention to the recipe and the technique when brewing beers with roast.

Regarding the baking soda amount. This recipe is using a significant amount of roast. I'm not surprised with the large dose needed to keep the pH from cratering. The sodium content in the mash will be high, but sparging will bring that down somewhat. I've brewed with sodium that high, but I have to admit that I'm more comfortable with the sodium staying below 70 ppm. That batch would benefit from Lime use.

[Carson B]

Regarding the baking soda amount. This recipe is using a significant amount of roast. I'm not surprised with the large dose needed to keep the pH from cratering. The sodium content in the mash will be high, but sparging will bring that down somewhat. I've brewed with sodium that high, but I have to admit that I'm more comfortable with the sodium staying below 70 ppm. That batch would benefit from Lime use.

Thank you. I've been researching lime after reading your comment and seems that's definitely the way to go. I'll grab some for the future. For this batch, I'm stuck with just baking soda, though, so we'll see how that high of a sodium concentration does.

[Silver_Is_Money]

My guess is that if you actually brew your recipe as seen in the OP you will discover that the mash pH (when measured at least a minimum of 30 minutes into the mash and cooled to room temperature before reading the pH) is actually going to be more on the order of 5.1.  I've been asking people for some time now to tell me the lowest mash pH they ever actually encountered as measured with a calibrated pH meter at room temperature, and to date most say 4.9 is the rock bottom they have observed (though I did receive one single report of a 4.8, but that guy also claims to take his measurements at mash temperature).  The lowest pH I've ever personally measured (at room temperature) is in the neighborhood of 4.9, and I brew some rather robust stouts.

I'd speculate that your actual baking soda need will be on the order of 8.0 to 8.5 grams.  Or alternately you could add on the order of 4.3 grams of pickling lime and see no sodium increase.

[goose]

Although I do not disagree with Martin here (he is the better chemistry guy here than me),  I have delayed adding the dark malts (roast, black patent, etc) to mash until I do a mashout  with my stouts and have good success.  I add these dark grains when raising the mash temp to 168 for mashout and recirculate/vorlauf for at least 10 minutes before running off the wort to insure good homogeneity.  Obviously, the dark grains have no enzymes left from the roasting process so they won't effect the mash efficiency.

This was a technique mentioned by Gordon Strong and it helps me keep my pH in line during the mashing process.  That said, if you can get your pH right with minerals before doughing in with all the grains, better yet.

Just my .02

[denny]

Although I do not disagree with Martin here (he is the better chemistry guy here),  I have delayed adding the dark malts (roast, black patent, etc) to mash until I do a mashout  with my stouts and have good success.  I add these dark grains when raising the mash temp to 168 for mashout and recirculate/vorlauf for at least 10 minutes before running off the wort to insure good homogeneity.  Obviously, the dark grains have no enzymes left from the roasting process so they won't effect the mash efficiency.

This was a technique mentioned by Gordon Strong and it helps me keep my pH in line during the mashing process.  That said, if you can get your pH right with minerals before doughing in with all the grains, better yet.

Just my .02

Personally, I find doing that changes the flavor so much that the technique isn't always applicable.

[Carson B]

I brewed this today and wanted to provide the results to anyone interested. I decided for the sake of experimentation to use the full 14 grams of baking soda even though that seemed like too much. It was. Room temperature mash pH was 6.0 after 10-15 minutes. Measured on a calibrated Apera PH60.

My guess is that if you actually brew your recipe as seen in the OP you will discover that the mash pH (when measured at least a minimum of 30 minutes into the mash and cooled to room temperature before reading the pH) is actually going to be more on the order of 5.1.  I've been asking people for some time now to tell me the lowest mash pH they ever actually encountered as measured with a calibrated pH meter at room temperature, and to date most say 4.9 is the rock bottom they have observed (though I did receive one single report of a 4.8, but that guy also claims to take his measurements at mash temperature).  The lowest pH I've ever personally measured (at room temperature) is in the neighborhood of 4.9, and I brew some rather robust stouts.

I'd speculate that your actual baking soda need will be on the order of 8.0 to 8.5 grams.  Or alternately you could add on the order of 4.3 grams of pickling lime and see no sodium increase.

I'd have to agree with the above on actual baking soda need. I'm now curious what this grain bill would've produced with no additions at all.

Thank you to everyone who chimed in. It looks like lime is in my future!