[mabrungard]

10 to 15 minutes into the mash isn't long enough. Did you happen to perform later measurements?

By the way, with the huge amount of malt flavor in that beer, the somewhat elevated sodium content isn't likely to be notable.  We'll look forward to your comments on the results in a few months.

[Carson B]

10 to 15 minutes into the mash isn't long enough. Did you happen to perform later measurements?

By the way, with the huge amount of malt flavor in that beer, the somewhat elevated sodium content isn't likely to be notable.  We'll look forward to your comments on the results in a few months.

I have always seen to take a measurement 15 minutes into the mash. Is that not correct?

[Silver_Is_Money]

~30-45 minutes should see the mash pH stabilize.  pH stability seems to occur right around when saccharification is complete (I.E., when all starches have been converted to sugars).

[Silver_Is_Money]

It looks like lime is in my future!

Find it at the pickle making supplies section of your supermarket.

[BrewBama]

I take my reference pH sample at about 15-20 minutes as well.

Over a series of brews days, using the same grist, water volumes, mineral additions, pump setting, etc, I took samples at 20 minute intervals throughout the entire mash. I noticed very little pH change over the entire mash ...like +/- .01 if I remember correctly, which is well within the margin of error given the MW101 pH meter operator’s lack of sophistication.

Over that series, I noticed most of the SG increase takes place within 20 min. @152*F. ...but I measured additional SG increase to about the 90 min mark. Past the 90 min mark the SG did rise but very little.

So, based on my measurements, using my system, water volume, mineral additions, mill and pump settings, processes, etc., I stop mashing at 90 min.  I get very consistent, predictable results which gives me confidence that when I brew I know what I’ll end up with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[denny]

I take my reference pH sample at about 15-20 minutes as well.

Over a series of brews days, using the same grist, water volumes, mineral additions, pump setting, etc, I took samples at 20 minute intervals throughout the entire mash. I noticed very little pH change over the entire mash ...like +/- .01 if I remember correctly, which is well within the margin of error given the MW101 pH meter operator’s lack of sophistication.

Over that series, I noticed most of the SG increase takes place within 20 min. @152*F. ...but I measured additional SG increase to about the 90 min mark. Past the 90 min mark the SG did rise but very little.

So, based on my measurements, using my system, water volume, mineral additions, mill and pump settings, processes, etc., I stop mashing at 90 min.  I get very consistent, predictable results which gives me confidence that when I brew I know what I’ll end up with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Kudos for your thoroughness in figuring out what works for you!

[goose]

Although I do not disagree with Martin here (he is the better chemistry guy here),  I have delayed adding the dark malts (roast, black patent, etc) to mash until I do a mashout  with my stouts and have good success.  I add these dark grains when raising the mash temp to 168 for mashout and recirculate/vorlauf for at least 10 minutes before running off the wort to insure good homogeneity.  Obviously, the dark grains have no enzymes left from the roasting process so they won't effect the mash efficiency.

This was a technique mentioned by Gordon Strong and it helps me keep my pH in line during the mashing process.  That said, if you can get your pH right with minerals before doughing in with all the grains, better yet.

Just my .02

Personally, I find doing that changes the flavor so much that the technique isn't always applicable.

While I was laying awake in bed last nite, I had a hair-brained idea (yeah most of my ideas are hair-brained, I'll say it before anyone else does!).  Since most of the conversion of the mash occurs in the first 10-15 minutes, as borne out by many malsters and literature,  maybe holding out the dark grains until say 20 minutes into the rest might not effect the flavors as you say, Denny.  It would definitely make the wort more homogeneous earlier and the lowering of the pH wouldn't be so critical.  Just thinking out loud here.

Might be a good research project for me to undertake here!

[denny]

Although I do not disagree with Martin here (he is the better chemistry guy here),  I have delayed adding the dark malts (roast, black patent, etc) to mash until I do a mashout  with my stouts and have good success.  I add these dark grains when raising the mash temp to 168 for mashout and recirculate/vorlauf for at least 10 minutes before running off the wort to insure good homogeneity.  Obviously, the dark grains have no enzymes left from the roasting process so they won't effect the mash efficiency.

This was a technique mentioned by Gordon Strong and it helps me keep my pH in line during the mashing process.  That said, if you can get your pH right with minerals before doughing in with all the grains, better yet.

Just my .02

Personally, I find doing that changes the flavor so much that the technique isn't always applicable.

While I was laying awake in bed last nite, I had a hair-brained idea (yeah most of my ideas are hair-brained, I'll say it before anyone else does!).  Since most of the conversion of the mash occurs in the first 10-15 minutes, as borne out by many malsters and literature,  maybe holding out the dark grains until say 20 minutes into the rest might not effect the flavors as you say, Denny.  It would definitely make the wort more homogeneous earlier and the lowering of the pH wouldn't be so critical.  Just thinking out loud here.

Might be a good research project for me to undertake here!

Or you can put them in at the beginning and adjust pH accordingly.  That's my preference.

[goose]

Although I do not disagree with Martin here (he is the better chemistry guy here),  I have delayed adding the dark malts (roast, black patent, etc) to mash until I do a mashout  with my stouts and have good success.  I add these dark grains when raising the mash temp to 168 for mashout and recirculate/vorlauf for at least 10 minutes before running off the wort to insure good homogeneity.  Obviously, the dark grains have no enzymes left from the roasting process so they won't effect the mash efficiency.

This was a technique mentioned by Gordon Strong and it helps me keep my pH in line during the mashing process.  That said, if you can get your pH right with minerals before doughing in with all the grains, better yet.

Just my .02

Personally, I find doing that changes the flavor so much that the technique isn't always applicable.

While I was laying awake in bed last nite, I had a hair-brained idea (yeah most of my ideas are hair-brained, I'll say it before anyone else does!).  Since most of the conversion of the mash occurs in the first 10-15 minutes, as borne out by many malsters and literature,  maybe holding out the dark grains until say 20 minutes into the rest might not effect the flavors as you say, Denny.  It would definitely make the wort more homogeneous earlier and the lowering of the pH wouldn't be so critical.  Just thinking out loud here.

Might be a good research project for me to undertake here!

Or you can put them in at the beginning and adjust pH accordingly.  That's my preference.

I have done it both ways, and am not disagreeing with you, Denny.  It seems a bit easier to control the pH by holding out the dark grains until mashout, but I am going to research this more.  I like fun projects!

[goose]

I take my reference pH sample at about 15-20 minutes as well.

Over a series of brews days, using the same grist, water volumes, mineral additions, pump setting, etc, I took samples at 20 minute intervals throughout the entire mash. I noticed very little pH change over the entire mash ...like +/- .01 if I remember correctly, which is well within the margin of error given the MW101 pH meter operator’s lack of sophistication.

Over that series, I noticed most of the SG increase takes place within 20 min. @152*F. ...but I measured additional SG increase to about the 90 min mark. Past the 90 min mark the SG did rise but very little.

So, based on my measurements, using my system, water volume, mineral additions, mill and pump settings, processes, etc., I stop mashing at 90 min.  I get very consistent, predictable results which gives me confidence that when I brew I know what I’ll end up with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I basically do what you do, Brewbama.  I take my pH measurement about 15 minutes or so in.  Your empirical data here shows me that I am OK with this.  Thanks for sharing!

[BrewBama]

Although I do not disagree with Martin here (he is the better chemistry guy here),  I have delayed adding the dark malts (roast, black patent, etc) to mash until I do a mashout  with my stouts and have good success.  I add these dark grains when raising the mash temp to 168 for mashout and recirculate/vorlauf for at least 10 minutes before running off the wort to insure good homogeneity.  Obviously, the dark grains have no enzymes left from the roasting process so they won't effect the mash efficiency.

This was a technique mentioned by Gordon Strong and it helps me keep my pH in line during the mashing process.  That said, if you can get your pH right with minerals before doughing in with all the grains, better yet.

Just my .02

Personally, I find doing that changes the flavor so much that the technique isn't always applicable.

While I was laying awake in bed last nite, I had a hair-brained idea (yeah most of my ideas are hair-brained, I'll say it before anyone else does!).  Since most of the conversion of the mash occurs in the first 10-15 minutes, as borne out by many malsters and literature,  maybe holding out the dark grains until say 20 minutes into the rest might not effect the flavors as you say, Denny.  It would definitely make the wort more homogeneous earlier and the lowering of the pH wouldn't be so critical.  Just thinking out loud here.

Might be a good research project for me to undertake here!

Or you can put them in at the beginning and adjust pH accordingly.  That's my preference.

I have done it both ways, and am not disagreeing with you, Denny.  It seems a bit easier to control the pH by holding out the dark grains until mashout, but I am going to research this more.  I like fun projects!

If you can, post your results here so we can all participate in your project. This sounds plausible.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[goose]

Although I do not disagree with Martin here (he is the better chemistry guy here),  I have delayed adding the dark malts (roast, black patent, etc) to mash until I do a mashout  with my stouts and have good success.  I add these dark grains when raising the mash temp to 168 for mashout and recirculate/vorlauf for at least 10 minutes before running off the wort to insure good homogeneity.  Obviously, the dark grains have no enzymes left from the roasting process so they won't effect the mash efficiency.

This was a technique mentioned by Gordon Strong and it helps me keep my pH in line during the mashing process.  That said, if you can get your pH right with minerals before doughing in with all the grains, better yet.

Just my .02

Personally, I find doing that changes the flavor so much that the technique isn't always applicable.

While I was laying awake in bed last nite, I had a hair-brained idea (yeah most of my ideas are hair-brained, I'll say it before anyone else does!).  Since most of the conversion of the mash occurs in the first 10-15 minutes, as borne out by many malsters and literature,  maybe holding out the dark grains until say 20 minutes into the rest might not effect the flavors as you say, Denny.  It would definitely make the wort more homogeneous earlier and the lowering of the pH wouldn't be so critical.  Just thinking out loud here.

Might be a good research project for me to undertake here!

Or you can put them in at the beginning and adjust pH accordingly.  That's my preference.

I have done it both ways, and am not disagreeing with you, Denny.  It seems a bit easier to control the pH by holding out the dark grains until mashout, but I am going to research this more.  I like fun projects!

If you can, post your results here so we can all participate in your project. This sounds plausible.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I will definitely do so!

[denny]

Although I do not disagree with Martin here (he is the better chemistry guy here),  I have delayed adding the dark malts (roast, black patent, etc) to mash until I do a mashout  with my stouts and have good success.  I add these dark grains when raising the mash temp to 168 for mashout and recirculate/vorlauf for at least 10 minutes before running off the wort to insure good homogeneity.  Obviously, the dark grains have no enzymes left from the roasting process so they won't effect the mash efficiency.

This was a technique mentioned by Gordon Strong and it helps me keep my pH in line during the mashing process.  That said, if you can get your pH right with minerals before doughing in with all the grains, better yet.

Just my .02

Personally, I find doing that changes the flavor so much that the technique isn't always applicable.

While I was laying awake in bed last nite, I had a hair-brained idea (yeah most of my ideas are hair-brained, I'll say it before anyone else does!).  Since most of the conversion of the mash occurs in the first 10-15 minutes, as borne out by many malsters and literature,  maybe holding out the dark grains until say 20 minutes into the rest might not effect the flavors as you say, Denny.  It would definitely make the wort more homogeneous earlier and the lowering of the pH wouldn't be so critical.  Just thinking out loud here.

Might be a good research project for me to undertake here!

Or you can put them in at the beginning and adjust pH accordingly.  That's my preference.

I have done it both ways, and am not disagreeing with you, Denny.  It seems a bit easier to control the pH by holding out the dark grains until mashout, but I am going to research this more.  I like fun projects!

Whatever works for you is what you should do!

[mabrungard]

I have always seen to take a measurement 15 minutes into the mash. Is that not correct?

I used to think so, but my experiments and measurements from dozens of brews and tests show that it’s not. For a typical grist, it takes at least 45 minutes for mash pH stabilizes. Even the ASBC procedure for grain pH requires a 30 minute mash and that procedure uses a very fine grind.

[Silver_Is_Money]

A very quick ballpark way to calculate the baking soda requirement without the need for software is to use this simple formula:

Delta_pH = mEq's/(Buffering Capacity x Kg_Grist)

If we presume the following:
Mash pH = 5.10
Target Mash pH = 5.40
Grist Weight = 9.35 Kg
Typical dark grist buffering capacity = 35
Baking Soda = ~11.9 mEq's per gram

We get:

(5.4-5.1) = mEq/s/(9.35 x 35)
0.30 = mEq's/327.25
mEq's = 98.2

98.2 mEq's/11.9 mEq's/gram = 8.25 grams
Answer = add ~8.25 grams of Baking Soda to hit a mash pH of 5.4


We can then work this backwards to see what 14 grams of baking soda should do the the pH as follows

(pH_After_Baking Soda - 5.1) = (11.9 x 14)/(9.35 x 35)
pH_After_Baking Soda - 5.1 = 0.5091
pH_After_Baking Soda = 0.5091 + 5.1
The predicted Mash pH after adding 14 grams of baking soda = 5.61

That you measured 6.0 pH is a bit odd vs. a predicted 5.61 pH.  Does your mash water have inherent alkalinity?