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Author Topic: Other than sugar in Belgian beer  (Read 3839 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2020, 09:51:58 am »
Rice extract ferments out very dry and I would not use it in a Belgian beer.

"Brew Like A Monk" is an awesome bood for sure.

Candi sugar or candi syrup would be the sugar of choice since it comes in different SRM's....

But sugar ferments out very dry, also.  What's the difference?
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Offline coonmanxdog

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2020, 09:59:44 am »
I don't know. I have used rice extract before and it does work well to boost alcohol. Just not a huge fan of it overall. I'm not sure if regular sugar ferments out as dry as rice extract. I don't have that information available right now. Maybe I could look it up.

Maybe there would be no difference. I don't know. Just seems odd putting something used in Budweiser into a Belgian beer....
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 10:05:29 am by coonmanxdog »

Offline denny

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2020, 11:35:51 am »
I don't know. I have used rice extract before and it does work well to boost alcohol. Just not a huge fan of it overall. I'm not sure if regular sugar ferments out as dry as rice extract. I don't have that information available right now. Maybe I could look it up.

Maybe there would be no difference. I don't know. Just seems odd putting something used in Budweiser into a Belgian beer....

Yes, cane sugar ferments out completely, just like rice extract.  I care more about the result than recreating the ingredients or process.
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Offline coonmanxdog

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2020, 01:02:13 pm »
I don't know. I have used rice extract before and it does work well to boost alcohol. Just not a huge fan of it overall. I'm not sure if regular sugar ferments out as dry as rice extract. I don't have that information available right now. Maybe I could look it up.

Maybe there would be no difference. I don't know. Just seems odd putting something used in Budweiser into a Belgian beer....

Yes, cane sugar ferments out completely, just like rice extract.  I care more about the result than recreating the ingredients or process.

I agree. Results are what matter the most.

Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2020, 05:22:26 am »
Some brewers of Belgian beers use honey.  However, Belgian Candi sugar, or “rocks” as they like to call them, are the preferred ingredient.  The color of the Candi sugar - from white to very dark brown - adds flavor, color and boosts ABV.

http://www.candisyrup.com

This company sells virtually the same product, but in a liquid form.

Can you give me an example of a Belgian brewery using rock sugar?  I haven't been able to find one.

According to a book I recently finished called: Brew Like a Monk, by Stan Hieronymus, most, if not all, of the following Belgian breweries use, or used, “Rocks” (Candi sugar) as a form of boosting ABV, adding flavor, complexity and color to their Blond, Golden, Dubbel and Dark Strong beers.

Anchel
Chimay
Orval
Rochefort
Westmalle
Westvleteren

A few things:

1.) BLAM is one of my favorite brewing related books. With that said, it’s 15 years old and some of the information for specific breweries, notably at Rochefort, was already in flux during its writing or immediately after its release. Here is some Rochefort specific info I put together a little while back:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=33089.0

2.) The Belgians, the Trappists in particular, use sugars that are generally cheap and bought in bulk. They have a pretty strong industry for sugars and bulk amounts of a variety of sugars are available. Some have been purported to use rocks and there is some anecdotal info in a variety of sources, including BLAM, that rock sugar is used at least at Rochefort. Rock sugar will give color but not much flavor. In the end it doesn’t matter. In reality, only Westvleteren has the hallmarks of the dark syrups that are nearly ubiquitous in homebrew recipes. Most of the other Trappist beers have yeast derived, not syrup derived, flavors that dominate.

You can pretty much use any sugars you’d like to replicate the profile of at least the beers from Chimay, Rochefort, Achel, La Trappe and Westmalle. I believe most of the homebrew versions of at least dark Trappist ales (understanding there will be exceptions) are actually targeting Westvleteren almost unconsciously and will require dark syrups as “par for the course”.

As always, YMMV.

Fascinating information indeed.  Thank you for sharing!
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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2020, 08:20:32 am »
Some brewers of Belgian beers use honey.  However, Belgian Candi sugar, or “rocks” as they like to call them, are the preferred ingredient.  The color of the Candi sugar - from white to very dark brown - adds flavor, color and boosts ABV.

http://www.candisyrup.com

This company sells virtually the same product, but in a liquid form.

Can you give me an example of a Belgian brewery using rock sugar?  I haven't been able to find one.

According to a book I recently finished called: Brew Like a Monk, by Stan Hieronymus, most, if not all, of the following Belgian breweries use, or used, “Rocks” (Candi sugar) as a form of boosting ABV, adding flavor, complexity and color to their Blond, Golden, Dubbel and Dark Strong beers.

Anchel
Chimay
Orval
Rochefort
Westmalle
Westvleteren

A few things:

1.) BLAM is one of my favorite brewing related books. With that said, it’s 15 years old and some of the information for specific breweries, notably at Rochefort, was already in flux during its writing or immediately after its release. Here is some Rochefort specific info I put together a little while back:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=33089.0

2.) The Belgians, the Trappists in particular, use sugars that are generally cheap and bought in bulk. They have a pretty strong industry for sugars and bulk amounts of a variety of sugars are available. Some have been purported to use rocks and there is some anecdotal info in a variety of sources, including BLAM, that rock sugar is used at least at Rochefort. Rock sugar will give color but not much flavor. In the end it doesn’t matter. In reality, only Westvleteren has the hallmarks of the dark syrups that are nearly ubiquitous in homebrew recipes. Most of the other Trappist beers have yeast derived, not syrup derived, flavors that dominate.

You can pretty much use any sugars you’d like to replicate the profile of at least the beers from Chimay, Rochefort, Achel, La Trappe and Westmalle. I believe most of the homebrew versions of at least dark Trappist ales (understanding there will be exceptions) are actually targeting Westvleteren almost unconsciously and will require dark syrups as “par for the course”.

As always, YMMV.

Fascinating information indeed.  Thank you for sharing!

No problem. I’m certainly not an expert but Trappist beers in particular are of great interest to me so I’ve researched them quite a bit.

Just to add some additional detail with respect to the use of dark syrups: go out and buy some of the best examples of the Trappist family of beers. You’ll notice that the colors, as far as my research has shown, of even the darkest Trappist ales have been lightening up over the years. When I discovered that a Rochefort was essentially using a Sinamar equivalent/workalike in their beers, a light switch went off. Relatively flavor-neutral color contribution could explain why Rochefort 6, 8, and 10 don’t taste like dark syrup bombs. Could also explain why Chimay Grande Reserve is fairly dark without the Westvleteren type dark ale flavors that have become standard in homebrew BDSA/Quad.

When I started brewing there was a series of articles at seriouseats.com outlining a few delicious dark Trappist inspired ales. It’s what got me into those beers along with tasting the classic Belgian examples. These recipes had tons of dark syrup in them. For a while it seemed to me the only way to brew these beers was to keep the grain bill light and the syrup contribution strong. I’ve since branches out and targeted the final results, letting my recipe drive that in ways that buck the trends. To me, dark syrups are a tool to be used to enhance a recipe, not a requirement anymore.

Offline coonmanxdog

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2020, 09:04:02 am »
For anyone wanting to brew a Belgian beer I would definitely search out that "Brew Like A Monk" book at your local libaray. It is a great read and the part that I really remember is when they mention a certain brewery that has a sign up saying to be quiet because the beer is resting, or something along those lines. But I do love their philosophy and I believe there are also some recipes at the end of the book as well. I remember seeing a recipe for a Dubbel using raisins. I wrote that recipe down and converted it to a partial mash recipe but have never taken the time to brew it.

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Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2020, 09:51:43 am »
I remember reading a bio of a particular brewer once (don’t recall who it was). He said if his beer got infected he called it Belgian. I recall laughing at that statement. Of course, it’s not true and I think he meant it as a joke but it does sort of point to an acquired taste of certain Belgian beers. 

One interesting point is that certain Belgian yeast strains contain var. diastaticus which from what I understand can cause havoc in a brewery.


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« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 09:53:39 am by BrewBama »

Big Monk

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2020, 10:16:28 am »
I remember reading a bio of a particular brewer once (don’t recall who it was). He said if his beer got infected he called it Belgian. I recall laughing at that statement. Of course, it’s not true and I think he meant it as a joke but it does sort of point to an acquired taste of certain Belgian beers. 

One interesting point is that certain Belgian yeast strains contain var. diastaticus which from what I understand can cause havoc in a brewery.


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This is one of the reasons I always ask for a specific subset when someone says "Belgian". Do you mean Trappist? Abbey? Duvel? Brown and Red Flemish sours? Macro lager? Regional Pale Ales? Regional Saisons? Wit?

These are very important distinctions that any people arent aware of. Somewhere along the line, "Belgian" became synonymous with either funky, hotly fermented farmhouse beers or Trappist beers, and all the rich variety in between got left out or lumped in.


Offline coonmanxdog

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2020, 10:24:04 am »
Well said. There is a large variety of Belgian beers.

Offline denny

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2020, 11:11:08 am »
I remember reading a bio of a particular brewer once (don’t recall who it was). He said if his beer got infected he called it Belgian. I recall laughing at that statement. Of course, it’s not true and I think he meant it as a joke but it does sort of point to an acquired taste of certain Belgian beers. 

One interesting point is that certain Belgian yeast strains contain var. diastaticus which from what I understand can cause havoc in a brewery.


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This is one of the reasons I always ask for a specific subset when someone says "Belgian". Do you mean Trappist? Abbey? Duvel? Brown and Red Flemish sours? Macro lager? Regional Pale Ales? Regional Saisons? Wit?

These are very important distinctions that any people arent aware of. Somewhere along the line, "Belgian" became synonymous with either funky, hotly fermented farmhouse beers or Trappist beers, and all the rich variety in between got left out or lumped in.
r

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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2020, 11:27:19 am »
On the 'Candi Syrup, Inc.' website they list the ingredients of their D-180 syrup as "Beet Sugar, Date Sugar, Water".  That is why I believe that "Date Syrup" should be a good addition to darker recipe versions of Belgian Trappist Ale clone attempts.

Pure "date syrup" is in and of itself quite dark, but obviously the beet sugar component must be caramelized to the desired level of darkness.  I'm aware of invert sugar being an acid based caramalization process, and I'm also aware of an alternative process that involves the addition of DAP instead of acid.  Does anyone know which of these caramalization methods is utilized in products such as D-180 syrup?

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2020, 11:58:15 am »
On the 'Candi Syrup, Inc.' website they list the ingredients of their D-180 syrup as "Beet Sugar, Date Sugar, Water".  That is why I believe that "Date Syrup" should be a good addition to darker recipe versions of Belgian Trappist Ale clone attempts.

Pure "date syrup" is in and of itself quite dark, but obviously the beet sugar component must be caramelized to the desired level of darkness.  I'm aware of invert sugar being an acid based caramalization process, and I'm also aware of an alternative process that involves the addition of DAP instead of acid.  Does anyone know which of these caramalization methods is utilized in products such as D-180 syrup?

Firstly, as good as their products are, there is a considerable amount of hype they have self perpetuated about their proprietary process. I repeat, however, how good their syrups are.

With that said, there are a number of grocery store available products that are great as well, including date syrups, golden syrups, turbinados, etc. Also, some of the products native to Belgium that CSI, Inc. has particular disdain for, are excellent as well. I'm thinking about syrups made by Belgian candy manufacturers. These were the basis, if not the source, of the original D and D2 syrups that came out right after BLAM was released.


Offline denny

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2020, 12:06:06 pm »
On the 'Candi Syrup, Inc.' website they list the ingredients of their D-180 syrup as "Beet Sugar, Date Sugar, Water".  That is why I believe that "Date Syrup" should be a good addition to darker recipe versions of Belgian Trappist Ale clone attempts.

Pure "date syrup" is in and of itself quite dark, but obviously the beet sugar component must be caramelized to the desired level of darkness.  I'm aware of invert sugar being an acid based caramalization process, and I'm also aware of an alternative process that involves the addition of DAP instead of acid.  Does anyone know which of these caramalization methods is utilized in products such as D-180 syrup?

Firstly, as good as their products are, there is a considerable amount of hype they have self perpetuated about their proprietary process. I repeat, however, how good their syrups are.

With that said, there are a number of grocery store available products that are great as well, including date syrups, golden syrups, turbinados, etc. Also, some of the products native to Belgium that CSI, Inc. has particular disdain for, are excellent as well. I'm thinking about syrups made by Belgian candy manufacturers. These were the basis, if not the source, of the original D and D2 syrups that came out right after BLAM was released.

I believe those original syrups came from a different company.

Whether or not Belgian breweries use those syrups, all I can say is that my Rochefort "homage" got a lot closer to the real thing once I started using them.
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Big Monk

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Re: Other than sugar in Belgian beer
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2020, 12:26:03 pm »
I believe those original syrups came from a different company.

Whether or not Belgian breweries use those syrups, all I can say is that my Rochefort "homage" got a lot closer to the real thing once I started using them.

https://shop.countrymalt.com/adjuncts-and-fermentables?terms=Brand:Dark%20Candi

Those were the originally imported syrups. I believe they are just rebranded bulk Belgian syrups. They are quite good IMO.