Author Topic: Mash PH  (Read 1879 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2020, 09:31:25 PM »
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/seminar/czech-plz-what-i-learned-brewing-with-the-czech-masters/

If interested, this seminar given by Annie Johnson, speaks about Czech Pilners and her visits to Pilsner Urquell. In it, she claims their "mash' pH is 4.7-4.9 She also claims this was stated to her by Head Brewmaster Vaclav Berka. She states that that is the pH she targets for her Czech Pilz and claims it is that low pH that drives the familiar flavor of Pilsner Urquell specifically and Czech beers in general.

If anything, it is a good seminar to watch.

Cool, so if the mash pH is that, whats that in room temp? Danger, loaded question.

Are you assuming that isn't room temp?

No, I'm not. It's stated that its mash. Please re-read above.

Am I confused, when I check my mash pH, whether at 15,20,30 mins or the end of the mash, I cool my wort then take my reading.

Commercial breweries would likely take readings "at temp" because of in process probes being able to handle the temps. So if she is indeed quoting their in process numbers, they would be higher by a certain degree depending on the process. More like 5.00-5.20 at "room temp".

I can say with certainty that Sierra Nevada, at least,  does not take pH at temp.  They cool first. And can we just agree that only Annie knows what she meant?

Absolutely!! I know what she meant too. I listened to it over and over and in the context of the simple question the audience member asked. I think you know what she meant Denny because I believe you made a comment while at the seminar and she responded to it but please let me know if I am mistaken and that it was not you but another Denny.

I'm certainly not trying to argue but she said what she said with a  simple, plain response....mash.

Yes, that was me.
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Online dmtaylor

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2020, 09:32:02 PM »
Some of you are dropping way too much acid.  ;)

OF COURSE she meant 4.7-4.9 at mash temperature.  You know how much acid you'd have to add otherwise?  The final beer would taste like a bad gose.  ;)
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2020, 09:50:48 PM »

Yes, that was me.

Was that the presentation where she said something about “That damn blue cooler”. 


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Offline denny

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2020, 10:08:44 PM »
Some of you are dropping way too much acid.  ;)

OF COURSE she meant 4.7-4.9 at mash temperature.  You know how much acid you'd have to add otherwise?  The final beer would taste like a bad gose.  ;)

You have no more idea of that than any of us do.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2020, 10:16:42 PM »
I was wondering if it was at Minneapolis.  I was there, too.  A great conference and great presentations.  Damned if I know that she meant pH of the mash at mashing temp or at room temp- but I think Dave’s point is likely correct...
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Offline HopDen

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2020, 10:59:22 PM »
I was wondering if it was at Minneapolis.  I was there, too.  A great conference and great presentations.  Damned if I know that she meant pH of the mash at mashing temp or at room temp- but I think Dave’s point is likely correct...

Ok, call me stupid here, I must be ignorant or just plain not comprehending. Would the pH be different  whether that pH was taken at mash temp (for s***s and giggles lets say 152*)  or cooled to room temp of 60*? Me thinks you get the same result!! Please, someone, tell what I'm missing here.


Offline BrewBama

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2020, 11:11:49 PM »
No. It’s different. At mash temp a 5.2 pH would be 5.4-5.5 at room temp.

FWIW, I shoot for 5.4 at room temp.


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Online dmtaylor

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2020, 11:12:47 PM »
I was wondering if it was at Minneapolis.  I was there, too.  A great conference and great presentations.  Damned if I know that she meant pH of the mash at mashing temp or at room temp- but I think Dave’s point is likely correct...

Ok, call me stupid here, I must be ignorant or just plain not comprehending. Would the pH be different  whether that pH was taken at mash temp (for s***s and giggles lets say 152*)  or cooled to room temp of 60*? Me thinks you get the same result!! Please, someone, tell what I'm missing here.

There is an average difference in pH of about 0.25 as measured at mash temperature versus room temperature.  For example, a measured value at 5.2 at mash temperature will become 5.45 at room temperature.
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Offline Die Beerery

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Mash PH
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2020, 11:43:56 PM »
Shall we now also revisit mash enzymes and their roles in the mash at certain pH values?
Maybe then we will see how a room temp ph of 4.7 seems highly illogical? Not to mention the large pH drop due to the intense decoctions. Something smells fishy. Unless PU can circumvent science? I’ve seen it happen before on homebrew forums .


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Online dmtaylor

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2020, 11:55:02 PM »
Shall we now also revisit mash enzymes and their roles in the mash at certain pH values?
Maybe then we will see how a room temp ph of 4.7 seems highly illogical? Not to mention the large pH drop due to the intense decoctions. Something smells fishy. Unless PU can circumvent science? I’ve seen it happen before on homebrew forums .

What's this "science" thing of which you speak?  You wield it like it is a Sword of Truth, or something.  ;)
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2020, 11:58:16 PM »
My experience is that if PU's pH was a room-temp measurement, the degree of proteolysis of the wort would result in a thin bodied beer. I am far more likely to use the pH regime that Bryan mentioned (5.4 mash and 5.1 knockout) for pale beers (especially with high Pils content) since that slightly elevated mashing and boil pH favors good conversion of SMM to DMS. German breweries often employ a late saurergut addition to the boil to bring the knockout pH down to that very modest 5.1 pH.
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Offline Die Beerery

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Mash PH
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2020, 12:04:20 AM »
My experience is that if PU's pH was a room-temp measurement, the degree of proteolysis of the wort would result in a thin bodied beer. I am far more likely to use the pH regime that Bryan mentioned (5.4 mash and 5.1 knockout) for pale beers (especially with high Pils content) since that slightly elevated mashing and boil pH favors good conversion of SMM to DMS. German breweries often employ a late saurergut addition to the boil to bring the knockout pH down to that very modest 5.1 pH.
Honestly would beta even work? Because alpha certainly isn’t. Everything I can find is that it’s way out of range.  I realize it’s not usually a hard number on these ranges, but man.  If you don’t have beta and alpha amylase you don’t have conversion. Couple that with 3 intense decoctions and you would be super low. 

I would be more inclined to believe they didn’t do any pH modification and when they hit the boil kettle it’s around 5.2.  Especially if the water itself is low in starting ph. 

There’s just way to many red flags here.  Sounds like something was missed, misquoted, misinterpreted, etc.  There’s a language barrier, professional to homebrew barrier, and no compete clauses in work here.  It happens.

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« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 12:09:06 AM by Die Beerery »
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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2020, 12:28:11 AM »
I'm even more confused because her presentation doesn't say mash pH, it says water pH:



My well water is generally soft but low pH of around 5.1-5.2 due to dissolved CO2.  Has she said elsewhere this is the mash pH?



Watch it again, she definitely said mash pH. I will too just so I don't have to eat crow.

Ok, here are some excerpts. At 14:30-14:42 then 15:45-15:52 and finally at 24:37-24:52 when asked by an audience participant a question about if it was the water pH or mash pH she spoke of earlier and she states mash pH

I can’t see any professional, commercial brewery targeting a room temperature mash pH of 4.7-4.9 so she must be talking about mash temp pH. Depending on temperature and mash schedule that could be in the low 5s for room temp pH so it’s low but not crazy.

Well the woman said what she said and she has an impressive resume.
I guess its like the old saying goes" You can't see the forest because of the trees"

It used to be that tangents in threads brought about good discussion. I think your tangent was a good one. It’s a thinker. I personally like thinking about brewing.

I don’t think that any one is calling Annie a liar, or saying she doesn’t know what she’s talking about, or questioning her credentials.

In this case you posted a digression from the OP that doesn’t make sense to me. I was just trying to rectify what I know with what you posted? Should we not talk about it?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 12:30:39 AM by Big Monk »

Offline HopDen

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2020, 12:29:32 AM »
I was wondering if it was at Minneapolis.  I was there, too.  A great conference and great presentations.  Damned if I know that she meant pH of the mash at mashing temp or at room temp- but I think Dave’s point is likely correct...

Ok, call me stupid here, I must be ignorant or just plain not comprehending. Would the pH be different  whether that pH was taken at mash temp (for s***s and giggles lets say 152*)  or cooled to room temp of 60*? Me thinks you get the same result!! Please, someone, tell what I'm missing here.



There is an average difference in pH of about 0.25 as measured at mash temperature versus room temperature.  For example, a measured value at 5.2 at mash temperature will become 5.45 at room temperature.

So then, which reading is the correct one? Room temp or mash temp?











Offline Die Beerery

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2020, 12:31:57 AM »
I was wondering if it was at Minneapolis.  I was there, too.  A great conference and great presentations.  Damned if I know that she meant pH of the mash at mashing temp or at room temp- but I think Dave’s point is likely correct...

Ok, call me stupid here, I must be ignorant or just plain not comprehending. Would the pH be different  whether that pH was taken at mash temp (for s***s and giggles lets say 152*)  or cooled to room temp of 60*? Me thinks you get the same result!! Please, someone, tell what I'm missing here.



There is an average difference in pH of about 0.25 as measured at mash temperature versus room temperature.  For example, a measured value at 5.2 at mash temperature will become 5.45 at room temperature.

So then, which reading is the correct one? Room temp or mash temp?
Even professionals have issues with this. So good luck. 


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