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Author Topic: Mash PH  (Read 8236 times)

narvin

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2020, 11:02:04 am »
I don't think anyone was besmirching her.  Just trying to figure out what she meant (and if I had listened to the questions at the end, I would have known), and by extension what the brewmaster meant.

They talk up the water a lot as part of their marketing, but there's no way they're getting down that low without acidulated malt and decoctions.  Put me in the camp that believes what they actually end up with is a room temperature pH of 5 - 5.1 at the end of the boil, corresponding to the lower range at knockout temp.  Of course, if someone here wants to try acidifying the mash to 4.7, I'd love to hear the results.

Achieving a knock-out pH of 5.1 after earlier having mashed at 4.7 pH would require the addition of a "basic" substance the likes of sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide or baking soda, etc...

That's not what I was saying.  Rather, that they aren't measuring mash, but wort pH at knockout, and that it is around 5 (but quoted at mash pH so closer to 4.8 ).
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 11:04:37 am by narvin »

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2020, 11:02:36 am »

When this is seen, in my experience it is directly related to having taken the "Mash pH" reading too soon within the mash, and thereby having achieved a false low pH reading for the mash.


As indicated above, my pH reading at 20 min over multiple brews was nearly the same than any other time in the mash.  So, there must me more to this.

Regardless, I’m brewing beer at home for me and my family and friends. I’ve never once had someone say “this beer tastes like the pH was taken too soon in the mash.” 

So... I’m not sure it matters.  I think what does matter is doing whatever process the same way every time. Apples to Apples.


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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2020, 11:07:27 am »

When this is seen, in my experience it is directly related to having taken the "Mash pH" reading too soon within the mash, and thereby having achieved a false low pH reading for the mash.


As indicated above, my pH reading at 20 min over multiple brews was nearly the same than any other time in the mash.  So, there must me more to this.

Regardless, I’m brewing beer at home for me and my family and friends. I’ve never once had someone say “this beer tastes like the pH was taken too soon in the mash.” 

So... I’m not sure it matters.  I think what does matter is doing whatever process the same way every time. Apples to Apples.


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This post wins the prize for being spot on.  You can't fault success, or the ability to achieve the repeatability of such success. 

PS: This reminds me of the guy who once said that you are not likely to hear your friends or relatives comment that "This beer tastes like it had low mash efficiency.".

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2020, 11:13:28 am »
You forgot to plug your software!

The only plug will be to explicitly state that mine (as for yours also) is not excluded from my listed comments, and you should never trust "any" software (mine included) over your own carefully undertaken pH readings.  My comments were all meant as a guide whereby to lead you (the collective you being used throughout here) to the point of being able to trust the validity of your own pH readings, while weening you away from the belief (based upon faith alone, with a touch of a lack of self confidence on the side) that somehow math models can be superior to measured and quantified reality.  When it comes to brewing they are not.  What they often are though can be likened to a watched clock which is found to be right twice a day.  Only for the case of software, sometimes despite its inherent flaws it finds good correlation under certain circumstances for certain procedures and certain recipes.  And that leads me to another warning:

Never presume that because your software agrees in one or a scant few cases with your specific recipes, procedures, or set of circumstances, that it will thereby do likewise for all other recipes and/or sets of circumstances or procedures.  Hint, it most assuredly won't.  Correlation does not imply or equal causation.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 01:05:50 pm by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline denny

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2020, 11:57:04 am »

When this is seen, in my experience it is directly related to having taken the "Mash pH" reading too soon within the mash, and thereby having achieved a false low pH reading for the mash.


As indicated above, my pH reading at 20 min over multiple brews was nearly the same than any other time in the mash.  So, there must me more to this.

Regardless, I’m brewing beer at home for me and my family and friends. I’ve never once had someone say “this beer tastes like the pH was taken too soon in the mash.” 

So... I’m not sure it matters.  I think what does matter is doing whatever process the same way every time. Apples to Apples.


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Well said
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2020, 12:15:41 pm »
And another way to get a false low pH reading is to read the pH as soon as the meters reading "stability" flag pops up.  The probe needs to sit undisturbed in the Wort for a couple minutes to achieve a stable and more correct reading.  The stability indicators are generally useless, but they use this feature to sell meters, so... 

Mine has a little smiley face. I believe the internet would say my pH meter is "wholesome." :)

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2020, 12:56:05 pm »
dmtaylor will say otherwise but that guy is a wacko.... ;)

Maybe!  Or maybe just taking one for the team.  :)

FYI -- it STILL works just fine.  Haven't busted a probe yet.  :)
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2020, 04:12:20 pm »
One case where I can state that correlation indeed does imply causation is for the case wherein since I started wearing my garlic necklace I have never been attacked by werewolves or vampires.   Er, wait a minute...  Perhaps I need to rethink that....  ;D  :P :o

Offline denny

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2020, 04:25:42 pm »
One case where I can state that correlation indeed does imply causation is for the case wherein since I started wearing my garlic necklace I have never been attacked by werewolves or vampires.   Er, wait a minute...  Perhaps I need to rethink that....  ;D  :P :o

I dance naked in my yard in a counter clockwise direction to keep elephants away.  Haven't seen one yet, so it must be working.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Die Beerery

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2020, 04:38:04 pm »
One case where I can state that correlation indeed does imply causation is for the case wherein since I started wearing my garlic necklace I have never been attacked by werewolves or vampires.   Er, wait a minute...  Perhaps I need to rethink that....  ;D  :P :o

I dance naked in my yard in a counter clockwise direction to keep elephants away.  Haven't seen one yet, so it must be working.
Hmm I don’t do any of that, and have no elephants. 


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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2020, 04:43:19 pm »
Well, things just fell off a cliff there.

Regarding pH meter care, any idea how measuring hot wort is relative to letting your probe dry out?

Big Monk

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2020, 05:27:54 pm »
One case where I can state that correlation indeed does imply causation is for the case wherein since I started wearing my garlic necklace I have never been attacked by werewolves or vampires.   Er, wait a minute...  Perhaps I need to rethink that....  ;D  :P :o

I dance naked in my yard in a counter clockwise direction to keep elephants away.  Haven't seen one yet, so it must be working.
Hmm I don’t do any of that, and have no elephants. 


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That’s because they only come out at night.

Offline denny

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2020, 08:18:34 am »
One case where I can state that correlation indeed does imply causation is for the case wherein since I started wearing my garlic necklace I have never been attacked by werewolves or vampires.   Er, wait a minute...  Perhaps I need to rethink that....  ;D  :P :o

I dance naked in my yard in a counter clockwise direction to keep elephants away.  Haven't seen one yet, so it must be working.
Hmm I don’t do any of that, and have no elephants. 


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Exactly my point!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2020, 08:41:41 am »
Exactly my point!

They could also be invisible.  Which brings me to:  "If you've seen one invisible elephant, you've seen them all."

But joking aside, the point Denny is making is that correlation does not imply causation.

Big Monk

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Re: Mash PH
« Reply #89 on: May 01, 2020, 08:56:37 am »
Never presume that because your software agrees in one or a scant few cases with your specific recipes, procedures, or set of circumstances, that it will thereby do likewise for all other recipes and/or sets of circumstances or procedures.  Hint, it most assuredly won't.  Correlation does not imply or equal causation.

This is important. One of the things that happens with software at scale is that the more users you try and tailor it to, the less effective it starts to get.

The most accurate and useful software? Usually a spreadsheet made for one user. It is tailored specifically to the process and brewhouse of one person. Say you know 10 people who brew roughly the same as you. It will still be accurate to a point, as each brewer may require certain tweaks that affect the overall accuracy of the individual but yield solid results for the group.

Now go to 100. 1000. 10,000 even. You end up diluting things and generalizing to the point where people accept things will just be "in the ballpark". I've gone back to just making sheets for the folks over at the LOB forum and only because there is a smaller pool of people and the spreadsheets stay consistent across the small group and the low levels of variance between ingredients, process, etc.

I don't envy those have to have to market and sell their software products (in any sector) to a large number of people because it is generally hard to please everybody, and in brewing in particular, nearly impossible to keep things to everyone's liking the more users there are.