[TXFlyGuy]

Okay...I'm a closet oxidized beer drinker. Now I'm out of the closet.
Hope all of your beers taste this good!

I always say that when people enjoy the beer they make, let them enjoy it.  End of story.  Agree with it or not but there appears to have been a lot of study done on O2 pickup and how common it is.  The point is that without measurement your comment about using kegs and not having any O2 issues is probably not going to hold up.  Higher ABV beers usually require a bit of extra aging as do lagers to a point.  The concept of a beer's flavor improving is common... it's on its way up to its peak, possibly.  Then it will be there for some amount of time before it starts sliding back down the other side of the slope.

Yes, of course, and I agree. But the new question, as it has surfaced, is how much will a medium bodied German Amber Lager improve through oxidation?

As stated, every beer has O2 pickup. Some more than others. We are hyper anal in avoiding this. Purging the kegs, doing pressure transfers, etc.

But for a typical lager, how much improvement will oxygen provide? Some? Little, or none?

I must have been wrong all these decades, thinking O2 pick up was to be avoided. Now I'm told the beer is so good because of O2 pickup!

Simply amazing...but I learn new things every day!

[Village Taphouse]

I'm not sure where to go with that part but I will say that some people will try some beer that is brewed with LO steps put in place and be so WOWED by the difference because it's very different from what they ordinarily drink.  Then when they have a beer that they're used to drinking, it tastes normal to them... which could translate to 'a beer with some amount of oxidation tastes familiar' and a beer with less dissolved O2 tastes unusual.  I don't think your beer tastes better because it's oxidizing.  I think it tastes better because it's at a point where the flavor is naturally improving and the flavor is getting closer to its peak. 

[TXFlyGuy]

I'm not sure where to go with that part but I will say that some people will try some beer that is brewed with LO steps put in place and be so WOWED by the difference because it's very different from what they ordinarily drink.  Then when they have a beer that they're used to drinking, it tastes normal to them... which could translate to 'a beer with some amount of oxidation tastes familiar' and a beer with less dissolved O2 tastes unusual.  I don't think your beer tastes better because it's oxidizing.  I think it tastes better because it's at a point where the flavor is naturally improving and the flavor is getting closer to its peak.

Makes sense. My friend, who has the same beer on tap, does not agree with me. He really likes the beer, thinks it has "mellowed", but thinks the full impact from the hops is still there.

With regards to O2, certainly a minimal amount of oxygen is in all beer, even commercially brewed beer. But we do our best to mitigate this at every step in the brewing process, all the way through packaging the beer in kegs.

[BrewBama]

Ask two brewers about their impressions of a beer and you’ll get three opinions.


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[TXFlyGuy]

Ask two brewers about their impressions of a beer and you’ll get three opinions.

Hence my distrust of BJCP types.

[Village Taphouse]

One of the things I picked up that I really like is to connect your fermenter to a keg during fermentation so the CO2 from fermentation will purge the keg.  Connect the other side of the keg with some tubing going into sanitizer, etc.   On the day of transfer, take the tubing connected to the fermenter (I use silicone tubing and connect it to the post of an airlock) and connect that to the spigot on the fermenter.  Then take the other tubing (in the sanitizer) and connect that to the airlock so it's closed and so the fermenter is filled with CO2 from the keg as it fills as opposed to outside air.  Sounds good in theory but there is beer moving from one place to another so I'm sure O2 pickup is there.  But I like the concept and I like transferring beer from fermenter-to-keg much more now.

[TXFlyGuy]

One of the things I picked up that I really like is to connect your fermenter to a keg during fermentation so the CO2 from fermentation will purge the keg.  Connect the other side of the keg with some tubing going into sanitizer, etc.   On the day of transfer, take the tubing connected to the fermenter (I use silicone tubing and connect it to the post of an airlock) and connect that to the spigot on the fermenter.  Then take the other tubing (in the sanitizer) and connect that to the airlock so it's closed and so the fermenter is filled with CO2 from the keg as it fills as opposed to outside air.  Sounds good in theory but there is beer moving from one place to another so I'm sure O2 pickup is there.  But I like the concept and I like transferring beer from fermenter-to-keg much more now.

This is a good idea!

[BrewBama]

One of the things I picked up that I really like is to connect your fermenter to a keg during fermentation so the CO2 from fermentation will purge the keg.

I’ve contemplated this but always worried about blowoff ending up in the keg.


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[Village Taphouse]

I’ve contemplated this but always worried about blowoff ending up in the keg.

I have had that happen but it's rare and it's usually a small amount.  I also have a way to elevate the tubing in a way where it would not hit the keg although the pressure is still there so anything unsavory could happen.  I make more lagers than ales so the fermentations are not THAT explosive.  Still... a little yeast in the keg won't hurt. 

[MNWayne]

Bel Air; I thought you do open fermentations?

[goose]

I just read all the recent posts on this thread and wanted to throw something out here.  I do the best I can to minimize O2 pickup when kegging although filling a keg with Saniclean and pushing it out with CO2 will not remove all of the oxygen from the keg because there will always be O2 dissolved in the sanitizer that will come out of solution and mix with the CO2.  It is inevitable due to the partial pressures thing so I do the best I can.

That said, when I tap my kegged IPA's and my Irish Red Ale, the first few glasses out of the keg are always have more hop bitterness than pints drawn down the line when the beer has had a some time to age a bit and not be so green.  I have blended by filling the kegs halfway from the bottom of the conical and then finishing the fills from the beer at the top of the conical to try to smooth out the the initial bitterness between two kegs, but it really doesn't make much of a difference.  Is it due to oxidation?  Is it due to maturation?  Is it due to (and here is that word again) stratification in the fermenter or the keg?  I don't know.  I just notice that the bitterness in these beers becomes more rounded as the beers age a bit.

[TXFlyGuy]

Bel Air; I thought you do open fermentations?

Yes, we do. But not as open as in the Old World. We leave the lid on the SS Conical, and place a cheese cloth over the small opening where you would place an air lock. Been fermenting this way for decades. Very good results, too.

I suppose technically, you might say it is closed ferment. But not sealed up. The CO2 blanket protects the beer from O2 intrusion. It still works very well for Pilsner Urquell Brewing.

The other thing, we use a floating pick up in the keg. Maybe that accounts for some difference?

[denny]

Based on my understanding (which admittedly might be incorrect) gasses mix and a CO2 "blanket" will not necessarily exclude O2.  I'd be happy for someone who knows more about this to explain or correct me.

[Lazy Ant Brewing]

One of the things I picked up that I really like is to connect your fermenter to a keg during fermentation so the CO2 from fermentation will purge the keg.  Connect the other side of the keg with some tubing going into sanitizer, etc.   On the day of transfer, take the tubing connected to the fermenter (I use silicone tubing and connect it to the post of an airlock) and connect that to the spigot on the fermenter.  Then take the other tubing (in the sanitizer) and connect that to the airlock so it's closed and so the fermenter is filled with CO2 from the keg as it fills as opposed to outside air.  Sounds good in theory but there is beer moving from one place to another so I'm sure O2 pickup is there.  But I like the concept and I like transferring beer from fermenter-to-keg much more now.

This is a good idea!

I'm a bit confused with the setup.  Assuming that the fermenter is placed higher than the keg, will gravity be enough to push the beer through the tubing and fittings for transfer into the keg?  Part of balancing kegging lines is getting some resistance to the flow.  And, which post do you connect the line from the fermenter spigot to?  Thanks in advance for your advice.

[TXFlyGuy]

Based on my understanding (which admittedly might be incorrect) gasses mix and a CO2 "blanket" will not necessarily exclude O2.  I'd be happy for someone who knows more about this to explain or correct me.

Here is a photo I took at the Pilsner Urquell Brewery. A good example of Old World, open air fermentation. We later drank this beer, and it was some of the best beer on the planet! This is the original way they brewed, and continue the tradition for serving to guests of the brewery. If there was an O2 problem, it was not noticeable.