Author Topic: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)  (Read 329 times)

Offline David Jones

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Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« on: May 07, 2020, 12:08:40 AM »
I've entered into BeerSmith the Extract version of the Pliny the Elder recipe provided by Russian River.  The OG, and subsequently the ABV, as specified by the web page compared w/the BeerSmith computed values aren't even close. The web page says OG is 1.072 and ABV 8.2% meanwhile BeerSmith computes 1.054 and 5.8% respectively.

I've tried entering it a number of different ways messing w/equipment profiles, changing up malt quantities, and the like.  I even entered the all-grain version as another recipe just to see if it had the same outcome.  The all-grain version of the recipe came closer to the specifications from the web page.

What I ultimately did to bring the numbers between the web page and BeerSmith closer together was to increase the DME quantity from 6.5lbs to 9lbs.  While I haven't mentioned the SRM, I brought that from the 9.2 as computed by BeerSmith back to 7.2 which is closer to the web page value of 7. I did  this by switching from light DME to extra light DME.

Finally, my questions:
  • Has anyone else run into this?
  • Should I just brew per the recipe on the web, ignoring the fact that the BeerSmith numbers don't match up?
  • Or, do my adjustments seem ok?
  • Any other thoughts or ideas would be appreciated?
     

Online Megary

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2020, 12:22:41 AM »
Without seeing the recipe, I would just brew it as provided by RR. 

But it does seem odd that the 2 numbers are on the opposite side of town.  Something is wrong somewhere.

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2020, 12:23:06 AM »
When I use a recipe from another brewer, using my equipment and mash profiles, I have to adjust grain and hop qty to meet the recipe SRM, OG, and IBU specs. They are never really exact but are definitely in the ballpark. It sounds like you are fairly familiar with this based on your comments concerning adjustments.

So, it sounds like possibly something else is going on with this recipe. Maybe the original brewer missed an ingredient or there was a typo.

I would shoot them a note and ask.


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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2020, 12:24:48 AM »
You are entering an extract recipe.  Do you have the recipe type in BeerSmith marked as 'Extract'?  From the numbers, it would appear that you have selected the recipes as an all-grain with a 75% brew house efficiency.  When you do this, the program automatically assumes a mash and that 75% of the sugars from the recipe make it to the fermenter. 

Offline Richard

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2020, 01:45:54 AM »
You are entering an extract recipe.  Do you have the recipe type in BeerSmith marked as 'Extract'?  From the numbers, it would appear that you have selected the recipes as an all-grain with a 75% brew house efficiency.  When you do this, the program automatically assumes a mash and that 75% of the sugars from the recipe make it to the fermenter.

That is not correct. One of the bugs in BeerSmith is that the brewhouse efficiency is not applied to extract in an all-grain recipe. BeerSmith assumes that 100% of the extract sugar will make it from kettle to fermenter regardless of trub and chiller losses.

It would help to post the recipe and the BeerSmith file (or post them to the BeerSmith forum) and let people dig into them without having to guess.
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Offline Richard

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2020, 05:04:48 PM »
If you are talking about this recipe:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/russian-river-pliny-the-elder-clone/

then the extract amount is definitely wrong. There is no way that 6.5 lbs of extract will give the same amount of sugar as 13.25 lbs of 2-row. Just up the amount of extract until you get a predicted OG near what you want, as you did. I would not brew the recipe as printed.
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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2020, 05:20:05 PM »
If you are talking about this recipe:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/russian-river-pliny-the-elder-clone/

then the extract amount is definitely wrong. There is no way that 6.5 lbs of extract will give the same amount of sugar as 13.25 lbs of 2-row. Just up the amount of extract until you get a predicted OG near what you want, as you did. I would not brew the recipe as printed.

Let's do the math...

6.5 lb. of DME gives you 299 GU

13.25 lb. of pale malt at 75% efficiency gives you 331 GU

Pretty close IMO
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Offline Richard

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2020, 06:15:05 PM »
If you are talking about this recipe:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/russian-river-pliny-the-elder-clone/

then the extract amount is definitely wrong. There is no way that 6.5 lbs of extract will give the same amount of sugar as 13.25 lbs of 2-row. Just up the amount of extract until you get a predicted OG near what you want, as you did. I would not brew the recipe as printed.

Let's do the math...

6.5 lb. of DME gives you 299 GU

13.25 lb. of pale malt at 75% efficiency gives you 331 GU

Pretty close IMO

My math was different:
6.5 lbs of DME at 44 ppg gives 286 GU
13.25 lbs of 2-row at 37 ppg and 80% efficiency gives 392, or 37% higher

I guess it depends on the mash efficiency assumed in the recipe. If it is ~65% then the extract amount could be correct, but if it is that low then you can't get an OG of 1.072 out of the recipe.
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Offline David Jones

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2020, 09:48:58 PM »
Thanks for all the feedback.  I'll have to take some of your feedback involving the calculations. Re-read some sections of John Palmers book in relation to them. Having more knowledge than when I last read it, and a second pass on reading it, maybe I can better understand and retain that knowledge.   

It is the recipe mentioned by others, https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/russian-river-pliny-the-elder-clone/.  The all-grain version says "Efficiency: 75%"  The extract recipe is immediately below the the all grain directions.

I did confirm that I did enter it into BeerSmith as a an Extract recipe.  I'll likely just retain my adjustments so that the numbers match up better between the web page and BeerSmith.  Brew it that way and see what actuals I get.

Edit: I realized Richard had mentioned I should post the BeerSmith recipe.  This was the only way I could think to do that: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aWk_2OSp_IGVC4HBopxajHhe_mWbr7QZ.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 10:20:52 PM by David Jones »

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2020, 09:59:18 PM »
If you are talking about this recipe:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/russian-river-pliny-the-elder-clone/

then the extract amount is definitely wrong. There is no way that 6.5 lbs of extract will give the same amount of sugar as 13.25 lbs of 2-row. Just up the amount of extract until you get a predicted OG near what you want, as you did. I would not brew the recipe as printed.

Let's do the math...

6.5 lb. of DME gives you 299 GU

13.25 lb. of pale malt at 75% efficiency gives you 331 GU

Pretty close IMO

My math was different:
6.5 lbs of DME at 44 ppg gives 286 GU
13.25 lbs of 2-row at 37 ppg and 80% efficiency gives 392, or 37% higher

I guess it depends on the mash efficiency assumed in the recipe. If it is ~65% then the extract amount could be correct, but if it is that low then you can't get an OG of 1.072 out of the recipe.

I'm pretty sure the AHA recipes are written for 36 points and 75%
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Online oginme

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2020, 11:54:42 PM »

I'm pretty sure the AHA recipes are written for 36 points and 75%

It is stated right on the recipe: Efficiency: 75%


Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2020, 01:32:55 AM »
I run any published recipe through my software to get an idea of what amount of grain I need to use in my system with my procedures. You may use more or less on your system with your prosecuted
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Offline santoch

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2020, 01:43:45 AM »
Did the recipe talk about adding sugar?  Did you include that?
Most IIPA recipes call for table sugar or corn sugar to boost gravity without the increased body.

[EDIT:]And some of them call for it to be added to the primary, not the boil kettle.
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2020, 06:11:31 PM »
It has to be a typo... To get that OG in 6 gal of cast wort you'd need ~9 lb of DME plus the 1 lb sugar.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Pliny vs. BeerSmith (The numbers don't match up)
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2020, 12:02:21 AM »
I remember an issue that was the correction. Zymurgy online is not cooperating, but i found this on Homebrewtalk. Hope this helps.


From the AHA
There are corrections to the Pliny The Elder recipe as it is printed in Zymurgy. The corrections are for the fermentables needed to achieve the 1.070 gravity.

You’ll need to change the recipe as follows. The recipe that was provided to us listed all the fermentable ingredients in percentages. The recipe is for a net of 5 gallons after the hops loss, but fermentables should be calculated for 6 gallons before hops loss.
This works out for 6 gallons at 1.070 with 75% efficiency and the proper % of each ingredient:

13.25 lb Pale Malt
0.6 lb Crystal
0.6 lb cara-Pils
0.75 lb corn sugar

From Vinnie:

I actually don’t have those numbers, I probably did at some point but it has been some time since I brewed the PTE as a homebrew recipe. Really that recipe is supposed to be a starting point for brewers to plug into their recipe formula and go from there.

Vinnie
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