Author Topic: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....  (Read 1303 times)

Offline Holeshot

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2020, 05:31:13 PM »
I'm not putting past that it could be contamination... I just am baffled that the process is followed the same for 20+ batches and only these two PB stout batches have done this. I have never had a single bottle of any other beer from any other batch except these two PB stouts be "gushers". You would think if it was the process I would of at least made 1 bottle of IPA or standard stout, porter, something that was a gusher as well. Maybe I have minor infections in all my beers but it really only shines through in these PB stouts because of all the pounds of "unclean" ingredients added to the secondary...

I will try upping my cleaning game as suggested. I noticed back in the day 20 batches ago or so when I didn't rinse as people said, I really felt like I could taste the star san... Not like soap directly but a filmy soap like after taste was slightly present... It went away when I started rinsing the star san out.

I might just stop using PB lol... There is a way though clearly... It's just something I keep failing at.

Now that all the bottles are cold there is a thin white ring around the neck where the top of the fluid is. Is this a sign of infection? I figured it was just "fermentation" inside the bottle. Just like the ring at the top of the fermenter.

Anyhow... 24 hours on the fridge and I can just pop the top off like normal. The situation was "fixed" by the fridge.

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2020, 05:55:13 PM »
Now that all the bottles are cold there is a thin white ring around the neck where the top of the fluid is. Is this a sign of infection? I figured it was just "fermentation" inside the bottle. Just like the ring at the top of the fermenter.

Not a good thing to see.  Not necessarily an infection, but it says to me that there was more activity once bottled than you want.  My guess would be you were not at final gravity.
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Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2020, 06:38:48 PM »
Now that all the bottles are cold there is a thin white ring around the neck where the top of the fluid is. Is this a sign of infection? I figured it was just "fermentation" inside the bottle. Just like the ring at the top of the fermenter.

Not a good thing to see.  Not necessarily an infection, but it says to me that there was more activity once bottled than you want.  My guess would be you were not at final gravity.

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Offline Alfredbrewer

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2020, 07:20:29 PM »
You might be on to something. When I added pb2, it was for the last 10 minutes of boil. Maybe that was a difference also as far as sanitation and the fact it was in for peak fermentation. For what it's worth, going that route still added a nice blend of flavor in the porter. I'm not saying that the way I did it is the perfect way to do it. It's the first time using it. I know everyone that has tasted it was pleased with the results. I'll certainly use it again the same way. I'm not usually one to add flavors of any kind to my beer, but this one has made me more open minded.

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2020, 08:13:24 PM »
I've never experienced it personally, but much aging literature points to gushers stemming from bottled beer mashed with too little calcium added to the mash water.

Offline denny

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2020, 09:05:18 PM »
I've never experienced it personally, but much aging literature points to gushers stemming from bottled beer mashed with too little calcium added to the mash water.

I've never heard of that.  Where did you run across it?
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Offline Holeshot

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2020, 09:21:26 PM »
Now that all the bottles are cold there is a thin white ring around the neck where the top of the fluid is. Is this a sign of infection? I figured it was just "fermentation" inside the bottle. Just like the ring at the top of the fermenter.

Not a good thing to see.  Not necessarily an infection, but it says to me that there was more activity once bottled than you want.  My guess would be you were not at final gravity.

This is my guess too. It was in the secondary for so long though? 3 months total fermentation what am I supposed to do leave it in there for 6?

Offline Holeshot

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2020, 09:29:04 PM »
You might be on to something. When I added pb2, it was for the last 10 minutes of boil. Maybe that was a difference also as far as sanitation and the fact it was in for peak fermentation. For what it's worth, going that route still added a nice blend of flavor in the porter. I'm not saying that the way I did it is the perfect way to do it. It's the first time using it. I know everyone that has tasted it was pleased with the results. I'll certainly use it again the same way. I'm not usually one to add flavors of any kind to my beer, but this one has made me more open minded.

I may try this. Sounds safer... You want to know another thing I was thinking it might be? What if the PB and the 5oz of sugar in it might be so sludgy thick not mixing with the fermenting beer such that its like slow releasing sugar the whole time. It's not like honey or corn sugar that mixes uniformly and immediately with the beer it's a big lump of PB paste in the bottom of the fermenter... Wild theory... Maybe I will try again this time adding PB2 to last 10 of boil, then I will let sit in primary for 3 weeks on the PB transfer off of the PB to secondary for 3 weeks then bottle...

I really don't think it's a cleanliness thing. I've had countless batches without a single issue. Also my water comes from the bull run I live in Portland the same water is used by some of the most famous craft breweries on the planet.

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2020, 09:56:43 PM »
I've never heard of that.  Where did you run across it?

Quote
High calcium levels are preferred, as calcium helps to lower the mash pH (10); supports enzymatic activity during mashing as it functions as a co-factor, especially for the a-amylases; promotes protein precipitation during wort boiling; and, last but not least, helps to remove oxalates already present during fermentation, which otherwise would be the main cause for secondary gushing in beer (11,12).
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/jib.18

Also:
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/OYWATj5i7D/
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1972.tb03443.x
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1962.tb01889.x
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1962.tb01860.x
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00474.x
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1973.tb03540.x

And likely dozens more

Basically, calcium precipitates oxalates that if not precipitated early on can later on (downstream, in the bottle) provide nucleation sites for carbon dioxide bubbles.  Their accumulation at these nucleation sites can lead to gushing.



« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 10:03:09 PM by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline denny

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2020, 10:03:38 PM »
I've never heard of that.  Where did you run across it?

Quote
High calcium levels are preferred, as calcium helps to lower the mash pH (10); supports enzymatic activity during mashing as it functions as a co-factor, especially for the a-amylases; promotes protein precipitation during wort boiling; and, last but not least, helps to remove oxalates already present during fermentation, which otherwise would be the main cause for secondary gushing in beer (11,12).
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/jib.18

Also:
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/OYWATj5i7D/
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1972.tb03443.x
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1962.tb01889.x
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1962.tb01860.x
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00474.x
https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1973.tb03540.x

And likely dozens more

Thanks so much.  Because I'd never heard of it, I've never thought to look for info.  Do you have offhand guess at how little Ca it takes for it to happen?
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2020, 10:13:23 PM »
Thanks so much.  Because I'd never heard of it, I've never thought to look for info.  Do you have offhand guess at how little Ca it takes for it to happen?

I really don't know the minimum.  I did find this:

Quote
If enough calcium is used to end up with 80 mg/l of calcium in the finished wort, the oxalate cause of potential gushing will be minimized. In 2001 German researchers argued that 99% of gushing is caused by calcium oxalate in beer.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/OYWATj5i7D/

Offline Holeshot

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2020, 10:22:34 PM »
Perhaps it's time to add some calcium.

Offline Alfredbrewer

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2020, 11:09:15 PM »
We also only used 3.5 oz of priming sugar.

Offline denny

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2020, 03:12:29 PM »
Thanks so much.  Because I'd never heard of it, I've never thought to look for info.  Do you have offhand guess at how little Ca it takes for it to happen?

I really don't know the minimum.  I did find this:

Quote
If enough calcium is used to end up with 80 mg/l of calcium in the finished wort, the oxalate cause of potential gushing will be minimized. In 2001 German researchers argued that 99% of gushing is caused by calcium oxalate in beer.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/OYWATj5i7D/

I'm gonna have to look closer, but that seems far in excess of the Ca recommendations Martin makes.  Could very well be differing purposes.  FWIW, I have never had gushing problems with what I think is a far lower level.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Need HELP! Stat. Gushers....
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2020, 07:39:00 PM »
I wonder if using Brewtan B precipitates out the metals and the CA oxalate a bit, such that the use of lower CA levels is not as problematic for the gushing issue?  I shoot for 40-50 ppm of CA, typically.  I keg, so I just wouldn't know for sure this as a cause and effect.  But I also treat my kegs periodically with a dairy product for removing milk stone and it clears up any beginning issues of beer stone (or late issues, for that matter).  I am interested in this topic and may have to run it by Joe Formanek, if I get a chance.
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