Author Topic: Born to be Wild  (Read 1322 times)

Offline Fire Rooster

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 567
Born to be Wild
« on: May 10, 2020, 01:19:03 pm »
Has anyone tried brewing beer open ?, and let whatever wild yeasts
indigenous to the area take over  ?

Or is this a fool's errand ?

« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 01:22:16 pm by Fire Rooster »

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 24842
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2020, 01:59:19 pm »
Has anyone tried brewing beer open ?, and let whatever wild yeasts
indigenous to the area take over  ?

Or is this a fool's errand ?

There's a multi award winning brewery near me that does that....DeGarde.  the brewer told me that they dump over a third of their beer due to the fact it turns into vinegar.  So yeah, you can do it, but be prepared for whatever happens.  I've known homebrewers who have done it, also, with similar  results.  My one attempt resulted in an undrinkable mess and I've never tried again.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline EnkAMania

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2020, 02:50:24 pm »
I wrangled some yeast and pitched it with British V and it came out great.  It was like a summer shandy. 
Some day we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1095
  • Deus ex machina
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2020, 11:28:11 pm »
I have not brewed since 2016, but I have been delving into sourdough lately.  Every sourdough culture is different due to native microflora.  What I learned after several attempts to create a healthy sourdough starter from scratch is that using whole organic wheat flour works a lot better than unbleached bread flour, which makes sense seeing that the bran contains most of the wild microflora.  The fact that the grain is organically grown means that no fungicides were use on it, increasing the amount of sporulated yeast in the milled flour.  The next important thing that I learned is that a starter that is started with pineapple juice works better at creating a starter that contains a higher ratio of wild yeast to undesirable bacteria than one that is started with water.  The reason being that pineapple juice has a pH of 3.5.  When prepared as a 50% weight by volume solution (50grams of whole wheat flour to 100 grams of pineapple juice), the starter has a pH in the range of 4.3, which is below the pH at which pathogens and other bad bacteria can replicate.  The starter is stepped with 25 grams of whole wheat flour on the 3rd day and another 25 grams on the 4th day before being stepped equal amounts starter, wheat, and water.  Most of the yeast in a sourdough culture comes from the flour, that is, unless one lives a high native yeast area such as grain fields, vineyards, and orchards.  A large percentage of the bacteria comes the local environment, which is why sourdough cultures tend to be different from culture to culture.

That being said, applying what I have learned to brewing.  I would acidify the wort down to around to between ph 4.0 and 4.5 and allow it to sit uncovered for between 12 and 24 hours (start it hot like the Belgians do).  From there, I would pitch a sufficient quantity of quality dry yeast for the batch at hand (dry yeast strains are grown below the Crabtree threshold under aerobic conditions, so they should be good to go in low oxygen wort).  Bacteria strains multiply three times as fast as yeast strains, so giving the native yeast and bacteria a head start should be balanced out by a healthy pitch of a known yeast.  If a brewer truly wants to live on the wild side, he/she should attempt to create a sourdough starter using ground malted wheat or malted rye using the process outlined above and transition the sourdough culture to a liquid culture after it starts by using the sourdough starter to inoculate acidified starter media.  I used to start cultures off of using autoclaved (pressure cooked) pH 4.0 adjusted 5% weight by volume (w/v) wort (1.020 wort). 

The cool thing about attempting to use a sourdough culture to start a beer starter is that the yeast in milled flour is sporulated, which is way for yeast strains to survive hard times.  Most brewing strains unable to sporulate due to not being able to undergo meiosis (sexual reproduction) due to being polyploids.  All of the yeast strains in flour are diploids. Diploids are able to undergo meiosis, which means that there is the possibility of hybrid strains forming and being selected via repitching.  That is how all modern brewing strains were selected. 

Some food for thought...

Offline Fire Rooster

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 567
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2020, 09:10:24 am »
Great insight and well written.

Thanks

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 24842
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2020, 02:15:18 pm »
Good to see you again, Mark!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline MattyAHA

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2020, 02:55:13 pm »
Has anyone tried brewing beer open ?, and let whatever wild yeasts
indigenous to the area take over  ?

Or is this a fool's errand ?

There's a multi award winning brewery near me that does that....DeGarde.  the brewer told me that they dump over a third of their beer due to the fact it turns into vinegar.  So yeah, you can do it, but be prepared for whatever happens.  I've known homebrewers who have done it, also, with similar  results.  My one attempt resulted in an undrinkable mess and I've never tried again.
they must be loaded at degarde, they dump a 3rd of their beer? that is the most anti business thing i ever heard, how do they no go out of business?
Matty


"This sweet nectar was my life blood"-  Phil "Landfill" krundle

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 24842
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2020, 03:09:01 pm »
Has anyone tried brewing beer open ?, and let whatever wild yeasts
indigenous to the area take over  ?

Or is this a fool's errand ?

There's a multi award winning brewery near me that does that....DeGarde.  the brewer told me that they dump over a third of their beer due to the fact it turns into vinegar.  So yeah, you can do it, but be prepared for whatever happens.  I've known homebrewers who have done it, also, with similar  results.  My one attempt resulted in an undrinkable mess and I've never tried again.
they must be loaded at degarde, they dump a 3rd of their beer? that is the most anti business thing i ever heard, how do they no go out of business?

They plan and budget for it.  Last time I talked to the owner they were hoping to get it down to 20-25%.  I understand that's normal for a spontaneous fermentation brewery
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline MattyAHA

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2020, 03:13:49 pm »
gotcha
Matty


"This sweet nectar was my life blood"-  Phil "Landfill" krundle

Offline jeffy

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3974
  • Tampa, Fl
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2020, 03:27:45 pm »
Good to see you again, Mark!
Indeed!
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7253
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2020, 07:27:58 pm »
Good to see you again, Mark!
Indeed!
Indeed. Cheers!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1095
  • Deus ex machina
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2020, 11:28:37 pm »
Thanks guys!  It is nice to see a few of the old regulars on the site.  I am hoping to start brewing again one day, but it does not fit my lifestyle at the present time.  Hopefully, I will find time to start brewing again after I retire in a couple of years.

Offline Cliffs

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2020, 05:31:27 pm »
I have not brewed since 2016, but I have been delving into sourdough lately.  Every sourdough culture is different due to native microflora.  What I learned after several attempts to create a healthy sourdough starter from scratch is that using whole organic wheat flour works a lot better than unbleached bread flour, which makes sense seeing that the bran contains most of the wild microflora.  The fact that the grain is organically grown means that no fungicides were use on it, increasing the amount of sporulated yeast in the milled flour.  The next important thing that I learned is that a starter that is started with pineapple juice works better at creating a starter that contains a higher ratio of wild yeast to undesirable bacteria than one that is started with water.  The reason being that pineapple juice has a pH of 3.5.  When prepared as a 50% weight by volume solution (50grams of whole wheat flour to 100 grams of pineapple juice), the starter has a pH in the range of 4.3, which is below the pH at which pathogens and other bad bacteria can replicate.  The starter is stepped with 25 grams of whole wheat flour on the 3rd day and another 25 grams on the 4th day before being stepped equal amounts starter, wheat, and water.  Most of the yeast in a sourdough culture comes from the flour, that is, unless one lives a high native yeast area such as grain fields, vineyards, and orchards.  A large percentage of the bacteria comes the local environment, which is why sourdough cultures tend to be different from culture to culture.

That being said, applying what I have learned to brewing.  I would acidify the wort down to around to between ph 4.0 and 4.5 and allow it to sit uncovered for between 12 and 24 hours (start it hot like the Belgians do).  From there, I would pitch a sufficient quantity of quality dry yeast for the batch at hand (dry yeast strains are grown below the Crabtree threshold under aerobic conditions, so they should be good to go in low oxygen wort).  Bacteria strains multiply three times as fast as yeast strains, so giving the native yeast and bacteria a head start should be balanced out by a healthy pitch of a known yeast.  If a brewer truly wants to live on the wild side, he/she should attempt to create a sourdough starter using ground malted wheat or malted rye using the process outlined above and transition the sourdough culture to a liquid culture after it starts by using the sourdough starter to inoculate acidified starter media.  I used to start cultures off of using autoclaved (pressure cooked) pH 4.0 adjusted 5% weight by volume (w/v) wort (1.020 wort). 

The cool thing about attempting to use a sourdough culture to start a beer starter is that the yeast in milled flour is sporulated, which is way for yeast strains to survive hard times.  Most brewing strains unable to sporulate due to not being able to undergo meiosis (sexual reproduction) due to being polyploids.  All of the yeast strains in flour are diploids. Diploids are able to undergo meiosis, which means that there is the possibility of hybrid strains forming and being selected via repitching.  That is how all modern brewing strains were selected. 

Some food for thought...

amazing knowledge. Thank you

Offline Cliffs

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2020, 05:35:12 pm »
from about 2006-2017 I was pretty into wild/ambient.native/spontaneous/whatever you want to call it ferments. They are really hard and I had to dump about 50% of my attempts. The other 50% definitely benefited from blending with one another, as there was quite a bit of variation. The ones that turned out well and blended well have won some BOS and golds in competition though. I eventually stopped because I didnt want so much carboy clutter and I felt guilty it was so wasteful.

Offline reverseapachemaster

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3521
    • Brain Sparging on Brewing
Re: Born to be Wild
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2020, 02:49:13 am »
Thanks guys!  It is nice to see a few of the old regulars on the site.  I am hoping to start brewing again one day, but it does not fit my lifestyle at the present time.  Hopefully, I will find time to start brewing again after I retire in a couple of years.

Can't wait to see you dust off the stirplate and get back to it.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing