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Author Topic: Few Questions for moving to All-Grain  (Read 1040 times)

Offline chemistesa

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Few Questions for moving to All-Grain
« on: May 29, 2020, 12:46:51 pm »
Hello All,

I am new in this forum and the questions I am about to ask must have been asked several times that I struggled to find. Sorry for that.

I brewed several times before with malt extract kits, and the products (Pilsner and APA) were pretty good. I am now moving to all-grain system. I have purchased some ingredients and ordered brewzilla 35 L. It's on its way and I am planning to start brewing the first all-grain batch next week:

The first kit will be:
- Zombie IPA (OG 1.065, FG 1.013, IBU 73, ABV 6.4%)
Pale Malt (5.28 kg), Vienna Malt (0.48 kg), Caramel Pils (0.25 kg), Munich Malt (0.4 kg), Melanoidin Malt (0.21 kg), Citra Hop (156 g, some for dry hopping), Safale US-05 for 23 L batch.

The questions:

- Is it safe to open the lid of the fermenter to take a sample or add hops? I am worried about oxygen ingress.

- Do we pour the sample back to the fermenter once we are done with gravity reading?

- If we are wasting the sample to minimize the waste, how often should we get a sample? Do we stop the fermentation once we reach the FG given in the recipe?

- Is it safe to use the primary fermenter as a secondary fermenter too after cleaning and putting the green beer back to it? I have only one plastic fermenter with a tap and T sticker.

- After bottling, do we keep the bottles in the room temperature or at a lower T? How long is ok for bottle conditioning for especially IPA?

Many thanks in advance for your support.

Regards.


Offline Slowbrew

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Re: Few Questions for moving to All-Grain
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 01:30:15 pm »

The questions:

- Is it safe to open the lid of the fermenter to take a sample or add hops? I am worried about oxygen ingress.

         You can open the fermenter to take samples and dry hop.  Just be careful to minimize how much you disturb the open space to avoid oxygen ingress.

- Do we pour the sample back to the fermenter once we are done with gravity reading?

          No don't pour it back in.  Too much chance of infecting the beer.

- If we are wasting the sample to minimize the waste, how often should we get a sample? Do we stop the fermentation once we reach the FG given in the recipe?

      Wait to take your first sample until activity seems to have stopped.  Often times this looks like the beer is starting to clear or the krausen has fallen.  Then wait 2 or 3 days to take another sample.  If the measure the same, it's done.

- Is it safe to use the primary fermenter as a secondary fermenter too after cleaning and putting the green beer back to it? I have only one plastic fermenter with a tap and T sticker.

        You don't need to transfer the beer out, clean and transfer it back.  Just leave the beer in the primary.  In most cases transferring to a secondary is unnecessary and will just introduce oxygen.  Doing it twice is just twice as bad.

- After bottling, do we keep the bottles in the room temperature or at a lower T? How long is ok for bottle conditioning for especially IPA?

       Room temp (~70defrees F) is a great temp to carb at.  Lower temps just make the process take longer.
       In my experience most beers are pretty well done at 2-3 weeks.  Or at least close enough.

Many thanks in advance for your support.

Regards.
[/quote]

Paul
Where the heck are we going?  And what's with this hand basket?

Offline TANSTAAFB

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Re: Few Questions for moving to All-Grain
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 01:49:07 pm »


Hello All,

I am new in this forum and the questions I am about to ask must have been asked several times that I struggled to find. Sorry for that.

I brewed several times before with malt extract kits, and the products (Pilsner and APA) were pretty good. I am now moving to all-grain system. I have purchased some ingredients and ordered brewzilla 35 L. It's on its way and I am planning to start brewing the first all-grain batch next week:

The first kit will be:
- Zombie IPA (OG 1.065, FG 1.013, IBU 73, ABV 6.4%)
Pale Malt (5.28 kg), Vienna Malt (0.48 kg), Caramel Pils (0.25 kg), Munich Malt (0.4 kg), Melanoidin Malt (0.21 kg), Citra Hop (156 g, some for dry hopping), Safale US-05 for 23 L batch.

The questions:

- Is it safe to open the lid of the fermenter to take a sample or add hops? I am worried about oxygen ingress.

- Do we pour the sample back to the fermenter once we are done with gravity reading?

- If we are wasting the sample to minimize the waste, how often should we get a sample? Do we stop the fermentation once we reach the FG given in the recipe?

- Is it safe to use the primary fermenter as a secondary fermenter too after cleaning and putting the green beer back to it? I have only one plastic fermenter with a tap and T sticker.

- After bottling, do we keep the bottles in the room temperature or at a lower T? How long is ok for bottle conditioning for especially IPA?

Many thanks in advance for your support.

Regards.

Welcome!

I look forward to hearing how you like the Brewzilla. I moved to an electric induction BIAB system a few years ago and love it but want a little more control and ease in my system.

All answers are my opinion and based on my own experience. If you ask 10 brewer's a question you will get 10 different answers!

Now for
The questions:

- Is it safe to open the lid of the fermenter to take a sample or add hops? I am worried about oxygen ingress.

If the beer is actively fermenting it is producing CO2 and a quick peek isn't going to hurt much. The yeast will scavenge any O2 and the CO2 will fill the head space and push out through the airlock. That said, you don't really need to mess with it, see following.

- Do we pour the sample back to the fermenter once we are done with gravity reading?

NO! Even if you are confident in your sanitation it is an unnecessary risk of infection. Drink it and learn what beer tastes like along the process.

- If we are wasting the sample to minimize the waste, how often should we get a sample? Do we stop the fermentation once we reach the FG given in the recipe?

When I first started I took samples all the time because I was excited, impatient, and curious. Now I don't touch the beer between pitching the yeast and packaging unless I need to taste or measure before the next step. For example if I brewed with brettanomyces and want to check the flavor profile before packaging, added a spice, fruit, coffee, oak, etc. and want to check whether the flavor is where I want it, or it is a longer time frame project like a sour or big beer that I want to check out.

You do not need to stop the fermentation. Allow the yeast to do what they do and ferment out completely. You can adjust the recipe or process on subsequent brews if you want a different result.

- Is it safe to use the primary fermenter as a secondary fermenter too after cleaning and putting the green beer back to it? I have only one plastic fermenter with a tap and T sticker.

You can leave 90+% of beers in the primary for the duration of the fermentation process. You do not need to remove the beer and clean the fermenter. That is another opportunity to introduce O2 and contamination.
The only time I use a secondary is if it is going to sit for an extended period of time in the fermenter and there is a valid reason to remove it from the yeast cake. For me, that is very rare. I dry hop, add fruit, add an oak spiral, coffee, spices, etc. in the primary. I usually use a small bag made from the same material as my BIAB bag to contain it and make it easy to remove when I want to.

- After bottling, do we keep the bottles in the room temperature or at a lower T? How long is ok for bottle conditioning for especially IPA?

Once bottled you want to keep them at room temp or higher until the yeast have processed the priming sugar and fully carbonated the bottles. Once your desired level of carbonation has been reached you can chill what you want to drink and leave the rest at room temp. When I bottled I used a few small Coronita or Coke bottles as test bottles so I didn't waste a 12oz beer if it was still flat. I also had no issues with placing a sixer near my furnace which got the yeast going and carbed my beer faster. Could it produce off flavors? Probably. But I never noticed a difference between the beers I quick carbed and those I let sit at room temp. It usually took between 1-2 weeks for bottles to fully carbonate at room temp, longer if it was colder, shorter if they were in a warm spot. Now I don't mean put them in your 100+° garage.

Hope that helps, let us know how it goes!

Skaal!

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Offline chemistesa

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  • Posts: 3
Re: Few Questions for moving to All-Grain
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2020, 12:09:30 pm »

The questions:

- Is it safe to open the lid of the fermenter to take a sample or add hops? I am worried about oxygen ingress.

         You can open the fermenter to take samples and dry hop.  Just be careful to minimize how much you disturb the open space to avoid oxygen ingress.

- Do we pour the sample back to the fermenter once we are done with gravity reading?

          No don't pour it back in.  Too much chance of infecting the beer.

- If we are wasting the sample to minimize the waste, how often should we get a sample? Do we stop the fermentation once we reach the FG given in the recipe?

      Wait to take your first sample until activity seems to have stopped.  Often times this looks like the beer is starting to clear or the krausen has fallen.  Then wait 2 or 3 days to take another sample.  If the measure the same, it's done.

- Is it safe to use the primary fermenter as a secondary fermenter too after cleaning and putting the green beer back to it? I have only one plastic fermenter with a tap and T sticker.

        You don't need to transfer the beer out, clean and transfer it back.  Just leave the beer in the primary.  In most cases transferring to a secondary is unnecessary and will just introduce oxygen.  Doing it twice is just twice as bad.

- After bottling, do we keep the bottles in the room temperature or at a lower T? How long is ok for bottle conditioning for especially IPA?

       Room temp (~70defrees F) is a great temp to carb at.  Lower temps just make the process take longer.
       In my experience most beers are pretty well done at 2-3 weeks.  Or at least close enough.

Many thanks in advance for your support.

Regards.

Paul
[/quote]

Paul, thanks a lot for these very clear answers. I will post here how it goes.

Much appreciated.

Offline chemistesa

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Few Questions for moving to All-Grain
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2020, 12:36:21 pm »


Hello All,

I am new in this forum and the questions I am about to ask must have been asked several times that I struggled to find. Sorry for that.

I brewed several times before with malt extract kits, and the products (Pilsner and APA) were pretty good. I am now moving to all-grain system. I have purchased some ingredients and ordered brewzilla 35 L. It's on its way and I am planning to start brewing the first all-grain batch next week:

The first kit will be:
- Zombie IPA (OG 1.065, FG 1.013, IBU 73, ABV 6.4%)
Pale Malt (5.28 kg), Vienna Malt (0.48 kg), Caramel Pils (0.25 kg), Munich Malt (0.4 kg), Melanoidin Malt (0.21 kg), Citra Hop (156 g, some for dry hopping), Safale US-05 for 23 L batch.

The questions:

- Is it safe to open the lid of the fermenter to take a sample or add hops? I am worried about oxygen ingress.

- Do we pour the sample back to the fermenter once we are done with gravity reading?

- If we are wasting the sample to minimize the waste, how often should we get a sample? Do we stop the fermentation once we reach the FG given in the recipe?

- Is it safe to use the primary fermenter as a secondary fermenter too after cleaning and putting the green beer back to it? I have only one plastic fermenter with a tap and T sticker.

- After bottling, do we keep the bottles in the room temperature or at a lower T? How long is ok for bottle conditioning for especially IPA?

Many thanks in advance for your support.

Regards.

Welcome!

I look forward to hearing how you like the Brewzilla. I moved to an electric induction BIAB system a few years ago and love it but want a little more control and ease in my system.

All answers are my opinion and based on my own experience. If you ask 10 brewer's a question you will get 10 different answers!

Now for
The questions:

- Is it safe to open the lid of the fermenter to take a sample or add hops? I am worried about oxygen ingress.

If the beer is actively fermenting it is producing CO2 and a quick peek isn't going to hurt much. The yeast will scavenge any O2 and the CO2 will fill the head space and push out through the airlock. That said, you don't really need to mess with it, see following.

- Do we pour the sample back to the fermenter once we are done with gravity reading?

NO! Even if you are confident in your sanitation it is an unnecessary risk of infection. Drink it and learn what beer tastes like along the process.

- If we are wasting the sample to minimize the waste, how often should we get a sample? Do we stop the fermentation once we reach the FG given in the recipe?

When I first started I took samples all the time because I was excited, impatient, and curious. Now I don't touch the beer between pitching the yeast and packaging unless I need to taste or measure before the next step. For example if I brewed with brettanomyces and want to check the flavor profile before packaging, added a spice, fruit, coffee, oak, etc. and want to check whether the flavor is where I want it, or it is a longer time frame project like a sour or big beer that I want to check out.

You do not need to stop the fermentation. Allow the yeast to do what they do and ferment out completely. You can adjust the recipe or process on subsequent brews if you want a different result.

- Is it safe to use the primary fermenter as a secondary fermenter too after cleaning and putting the green beer back to it? I have only one plastic fermenter with a tap and T sticker.

You can leave 90+% of beers in the primary for the duration of the fermentation process. You do not need to remove the beer and clean the fermenter. That is another opportunity to introduce O2 and contamination.
The only time I use a secondary is if it is going to sit for an extended period of time in the fermenter and there is a valid reason to remove it from the yeast cake. For me, that is very rare. I dry hop, add fruit, add an oak spiral, coffee, spices, etc. in the primary. I usually use a small bag made from the same material as my BIAB bag to contain it and make it easy to remove when I want to.

- After bottling, do we keep the bottles in the room temperature or at a lower T? How long is ok for bottle conditioning for especially IPA?

Once bottled you want to keep them at room temp or higher until the yeast have processed the priming sugar and fully carbonated the bottles. Once your desired level of carbonation has been reached you can chill what you want to drink and leave the rest at room temp. When I bottled I used a few small Coronita or Coke bottles as test bottles so I didn't waste a 12oz beer if it was still flat. I also had no issues with placing a sixer near my furnace which got the yeast going and carbed my beer faster. Could it produce off flavors? Probably. But I never noticed a difference between the beers I quick carbed and those I let sit at room temp. It usually took between 1-2 weeks for bottles to fully carbonate at room temp, longer if it was colder, shorter if they were in a warm spot. Now I don't mean put them in your 100+° garage.

Hope that helps, let us know how it goes!

Skaal!

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Thanks Skaal for your valuable comments. I will definitely share my experience with Brewzilla here.

The interesting thing is that I am a chemical engineer with 7 years experience in oil and gas business. I mostly deal with a system producing 500,000 bbl of oil and 1000 mmscf natural gas and I was thinking that brewing technology should not be that hard for me to understand and get mastered at. But I as get deeper from the extract brewing to all-grain I start asking too many questions that really need an experienced person to answer. Its science is clear and straightforward, but the practical application is complex enough to confuse any chemist with no experience in brewing.

So, back to the points above, no worries with opening the lid for a short time to sample or add hops. I assume we are talking about a period less than a minute here. I am enlightened :) It is a wonderful idea to drink the beer at several stages. I have always wondered what it would tasted like if we used pure table sugar instead of the one we extract from malt. I think I can find out.

As advised by Paul, I will not touch the beer unless the air-lock stops bubbling. Then I will take samples with 3-4 days difference and move to bottling if there is no gravity change significantly. It makes a lot of sense to use little containers for sampling after bottling. I will leave the bottles at room T for 2 weeks and then check the sample.

One point which I find confusing is presence of oxygen. When we start the fermentation and pitch the yeast, it is advised to oxygenate the fermenter by shaking, agitating or adding pure oxygen. But later we try to avoid oxygen. Is that because the oxygen required for the yeast is limited and the excess of it causes troubles?

One more question is about yeast pitching. The yeast I am going to use for the IPA batch is Safale US-05. On the product bulletin, it is advised to prepare a yeast starter for worts with a gravity above 1.050. My OG is 1.065 but I do not have malt extract to do it. I have a big problem with supplying the stuff because whatever I need for homebrewing is mostly missed in the local market (Baku), and I need to buy it from Russia or Turkey.

Again thanks for the answer and attention.

Regards,
Elmir






 

Offline denny

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Re: Few Questions for moving to All-Grain
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2020, 12:53:37 pm »

One point which I find confusing is presence of oxygen. When we start the fermentation and pitch the yeast, it is advised to oxygenate the fermenter by shaking, agitating or adding pure oxygen. But later we try to avoid oxygen. Is that because the oxygen required for the yeast is limited and the excess of it causes troubles?

One more question is about yeast pitching. The yeast I am going to use for the IPA batch is Safale US-05. On the product bulletin, it is advised to prepare a yeast starter for worts with a gravity above 1.050. My OG is 1.065 but I do not have malt extract to do it. I have a big problem with supplying the stuff because whatever I need for homebrewing is mostly missed in the local market (Baku), and I need to buy it from Russia or Turkey.

You are correct about the O2.  In the beginning the yeast uses it to synthesize sterols which keep cell walls flexible to encourage budding.  Once tgphat oxygen is consumed, tpyou wa t to avoid more oxygen as much as possible to void premature staling.  Het, light and oxygen are the enemies of beer.

You do not need to make a yeast starter for that OG.  In general, you want to avoid making starters with dry yeast.  It can actually reduce performance it goes back to sterols again.  When dry yeast is me a growth is stopped duri v the sterols production phase.  You want the yeast to use those sterols in your beer, not in a starter.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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