[fredthecat]

My only nit on your comments is the sales. If he thinks he might be good at sales he should give it a try. At one time I was a design engineer/project manager. The company folded so I rolled into sales with a new employer. The salary increase was immediately 40% excluding bonuses/commission. It's been a long time, but my current base is 3X what I made as a design engineer. Now I am a seasoned sales professional with professional credentials, but if successful he could have a lucrative career so long as his boss isn't a buttplug.

I do agree a sales career as an independent consultant is not worth pursuing. Better to have a base salary which is sustainable plus bonus and/or commissions.

He shouldn't be afraid to change jobs. I enjoyed my last job, but it gave me zero time to do much other than work. I was busy all the time. I jumped ship in January to a different company and nowadays my day ends at 5pm. Cannot travel currently due to the virus and work rules. Was actually told today I was doing quite well. Imagine how much better that can/will be once I'm allowed to cover my territory properly.

I agree, I actually did make a huge amount of money doing independent stuff along with a contract paid job. I had to cold call, get my name out, do introductions, and yes it sucked, but I ended up being pretty competent at it.

People do get by, and it always amuses me to see one person who is "successful" give advice as to the only way to make money.

What advice would you give me?

Spend less time on brewing forums.

pithy, but why exactly?

[Bilsch]

What advice would you give me?

Spend less time on brewing forums.

pithy, but why exactly?

Didn't you just break your rule number one?
"I will NOT respond to this thread, so you are free to say your truest opinions. I would even ask that people don't respond to others' posts."

[skyler]

My only nit on your comments is the sales. If he thinks he might be good at sales he should give it a try. At one time I was a design engineer/project manager. The company folded so I rolled into sales with a new employer. The salary increase was immediately 40% excluding bonuses/commission. It's been a long time, but my current base is 3X what I made as a design engineer. Now I am a seasoned sales professional with professional credentials, but if successful he could have a lucrative career so long as his boss isn't a buttplug.

I do agree a sales career as an independent consultant is not worth pursuing. Better to have a base salary which is sustainable plus bonus and/or commissions.

I don't intend to attack, but how old are you and what decade was this? Entry-level sales jobs aren't what they used to be. As one example, my Dad sold auto/home/life insurance for a large insurance company for ~24 years, retiring early in 2009. He had his own office and personal secretary (and additional shared support staff) For the last fifteen years of his career, he earned over $250k/yr. When he started up through the early '90s, a new sales rep earned commission plus a salary based on their prior/career sales. This meant it started with a low salary, but steadily increased as your lifetime sales went up. Commission was always low to start, but was the majority of your income if you did even reasonably well. The company restructured and that salary calculation changed and so did the available territory as well as the manner in which the job took place. What once was done by one well-paid sales rep and 1.5 support staff was now done by six people in cubicles earning starvation wages with very little room for advancement.

Tons of industries have reshaped sales positions this way. Lots of people in cubicles replacing someone in an office. You buy online instead of in-person. You get connected to a customer service rep in Manila reading from a script instead of in the same office as your salesperson. For millennials, this career path sucks unless you are in a small handful of fields that rely on someone skillfully manipulating other people -- mortgage brokers or real estate agents, for example. But if OP was the kind of charismatic sociopath natural salesman who would do well selling mortgages or houses, he probably wouldn't have posted the query he did.

Also, most entry-level sales positions make you work as an independent contractor with no salary nor benefits these days, because it is cheaper for the business to stay afloat, and there are always enough desperate suckers willing to take the work. Add that sales work doesn't translate as qualified experience in most other fields, and it is worth avoiding.

I grant that there are some sales positions that are different. I believe someone sells upholstery to United Airlines and they probably make a mint. But I don't think those few good sales positions are readily available to the average Joe with little experience and limited connections.

[skyler]

I agree, I actually did make a huge amount of money doing independent stuff along with a contract paid job. I had to cold call, get my name out, do introductions, and yes it sucked, but I ended up being pretty competent at it.

People do get by, and it always amuses me to see one person who is "successful" give advice as to the only way to make money.

That's exactly my point -- you "got by" and now you're still looking for work/direction with little to show for the experience. Sales jobs are problematic for people our generation because they don't give you meaningful experience on your CV, especially if you were an IC rather than an employee. It's the same for most self-employed positions. I would be placed 2 steps higher on my current salary schedule if my self-employed years had been with a government agency or a law firm. Since I was working for myself, I had to start at level 0. Now, sale/independent contracting is better than no job, of course. As I said, any job is better than no job. But a job that communicates "I was unemployed" or "I might have been under/unemployed, but you can't really tell" doesn't help you get future work. It's a gamble to even put it on your resume, depending on what you're looking for. That makes it that much harder to find better career-level work. No job that lets you "get by" is good enough to set your sights on unless it sets you up for a better job somewhere down the line. Few sales jobs fit that description.

Also, I now realize you're in Canada, so that does change some things since us living across your southern border also have to consider health insurance as part of the employment equation.

[MDixon]

I don't intend to attack, but how old are you and what decade was this? Entry-level sales jobs aren't what they used to be.

Your knowledge of sales appears to be small in scope or lacking depth. Don't put on blinders to believe life insurance is the only form of sales.

Have you noticed those little ink jet codes you see on plastic bottles? You really do not want to know what the sales professionals for those little printers get paid when the average printer is less than $5k.


I currently work in the HVAC industry and cover 12 states and was previously covering at least 15 states, the islands, and the middle east. I have worked in the drainage/low head transmission pipe industry covering as many as 15 states. Both industries and many others can prove to be lucrative for sales professionals.

If someone is in a type of sales where their job could be handled by someone in an office or a fax machine then they should look for another career as they will eventually be replaced.

I could have made more money had I stayed at my most recent employer and walked away from a huge amount of upcoming commission. The difference is then I was averaging over 50 phone calls per day and hundreds of emails. Now I handle a few calls per day and a handful of emails. I negotiated a higher base due to my experience with the change and the change has been good.


One final bit of advice for anyone thinking of a sales career. Set your lifestyle to live on your base after retirement is fully funded. In that way all commissions and bonus are gravy.

[skyler]

If someone is in a type of sales where their job could be handled by someone in an office or a fax machine then they should look for another career as they will eventually be replaced.

This is pretty much what I mean -- sales work that still exists and is lucrative is not available to an entry-level worker and will likely not be as lucrative in the future. Way too many of my friends and classmates took sales jobs that left them overworked and underpaid with no meaningful experience on their resumes. Those printer salesmen won't be replaced by another generation of printer salesmen, they will be replaced by a call center outside Bangalore. Even car dealers won't be around forever in their current form. I'm not saying sales is "bad work," I am recommending against starting out in sales.

[MDixon]

The printer sales are person to person. They will not be outsourced. Industrial clients rely on sales professionals on a daily basis.

Your friends chose poor professions. One could take an entry level sales job in the HVAC market and do quite well provided they have the ability to sell. Many believe they can sell, but when the rubber meets the road it turns out to not be their cup of tea. HVAC sales could be done by most homebrewers, they just need to learn the products and the features and benefits. The rest is tenacity and the ability to turn a no into a yes over time. Most people under 30 hear no and walk away. No is opportunity for the future. I prefer the no calls. Selling to a buddy is easy and doesn't make the juices flow.

Anyway, if he feels he might want to give sales a try, he should.

[Village Taphouse]

I don't have a horse in this race but... My friend and business associate (software) closed his business of 37 years because one of his customers (an HVAC parts and service company) offered him a position he could not refuse.  The company does $500m in revenue every year and they're growing.  If someone told me that they made good coin working for any type of HVAC place, I would tend to believe them. 

[MDixon]

The person skillfully welding pipe for an HVAC company is probably making above $100k per year. If he or she can weld stainless the $ increase. If they can weld duplex stainless the $$ increase.

[fredthecat]

As one example, my Dad earned over $250k/yr. When he started up through the early '90s, a new sales rep earned commission plus a salary based on their prior/career sales.

lol you talk like your daddy earned 250k a year. please tell me more about how i should run my life so i can achieve high-suburb status and have a bmw suv.

I don't have a horse in this race but... My friend and business associate (software) closed his business of 37 years because one of his customers (an HVAC parts and service company) offered him a position he could not refuse.  The company does $500m in revenue every year and they're growing.  If someone told me that they made good coin working for any type of HVAC place, I would tend to believe them.

i am very seriously considering HVAC training, its just that its a departure from all that i've done professionally before. im planning on checking out what programs are available at my local community college.

[Village Taphouse]

i am very seriously considering HVAC training, its just that its a departure from all that i've done professionally before. im planning on checking out what programs are available at my local community college.

I'm no guidance counselor, but there is definitely something to be said for life/work balance.  I saw this quote years ago and it always sticks with me...

Every man has a choice: to build the world or to enjoy it.

Neither is better than the other, but they are very different, and it's best to figure out which calls to you as quickly as possible.

What I hear in that is... you can be a pillar of industry, work your ass off, make a ton of money and possibly have less time for a spouse, kids, the things you WANT to do, etc. or you can enjoy the world in a different way.  When I was 24 I lost my last real job.  The company got big and hired a bunch of new people and I was there for a year and they realized they hired too many and let a bunch of us go.  No fault of my own.  I went into business for myself... not because I envisioned that for myself but because I no longer trusted employers.  For 30+ years I have had an excellent life-work balance.  I have not made a TON of money but it's enough.  I can take time whenever I want, I just don't get paid for it.  If I want to go for a 2-hour bike ride at 10:30 on a Tuesday morning, I just do it.  If I want to go outside in the backyard with some music and a beer at 3pm on a Thursday afternoon, I just do it.  This is what *I* like and I do not worry about money because I do not live to get rich and I live within my means.  I know people who killed themselves for money.  They have money but a lot of the people in their life wish they had spent more time together instead. 

[skyler]

lol you talk like your daddy earned 250k a year. please tell me more about how i should run my life so i can achieve high-suburb status and have a bmw suv.

How rude. My high-suburb status daddy and my poor immigrant mother taught me manners. It's a pity your parents never got to that.

[MDixon]

i am very seriously considering HVAC training, its just that its a departure from all that i've done professionally before. im planning on checking out what programs are available at my local community college.

In terms of trades, welding is the big dirty $, but it is a young person's game and takes time to perfect. HVAC techs can do well and I see many people in their 40's and 50's attending technical college to learn that craft. Controls is a hot area right now and the ability to program controls as well as setup and wire can prove lucrative.

Often the money is in the long game and service. Using your home as an example, to get a tech out to look at your AC on a non-emergency is $75 for just the visit even if they do nothing. Most of the time they replace a capacitor on your condensing unit which was $20-30 and charge you $100 in parts plus the labor. So if you are lucky that bad capacitor only cost you $200 to fix a $20 part. Now take this example to a large commercial building. Annual maintenance contracts can be very lucrative for the HVAC company and at the same time save the commercial business major $ by running equipment at an optimal level.

So back to our buddy and life insurance. Life insurance is an optional product for most people. OTOH being without HVAC in today's society is not considered optional unless you are camping or homeless.

I grew up without heat in my room and without AC. HVAC is a luxury, but it's also one most people can't do without for more than a day.

[Village Taphouse]

There's another quote from Hal Holbrook in Wall Street:  The main thing about money, Bud, is that it makes you do things you don't want to do..

True, true. 

[majorvices]

Exercise and stay in shape, eat healthy, don't drink too much, read a lot and never stop learning. Save as much money as you can and try to find a job you can enjoy.