Author Topic: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?  (Read 391 times)

Offline Village Taphouse

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What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« on: August 03, 2020, 05:48:10 PM »
I'm sure this has been discussed.  I remember Denny mentioning that a FWH addition should be calculated as a 20-minute addition.  That was quite some time ago.  Many calculators I use calculate the FWH addition as ZERO IBUs which I know is not right.  Some have mentioned recently that you may actually get MORE IBUs from a FWH than you do from adding hops at the start of the boil and one of Marshall's exbeeriments on FWHing showed that calculated IBUs from a FWH was slightly higher than a bittering addition.  I plan on making a Czech pils with all Saaz coming up.  I was going to use FWH and a bittering addition (30 minutes).  The Saaz are 3.2% and two ounces for 30 minutes would give me 20 IBUs.  I was going to use another 2 ounces as a FWH but I don't necessarily want to get to 40 IBUs... maybe only 30 or so.  Should I consider the FWH to be the same or close to hops added at the start  of the boil?  Cheers and thanks.
Ken from Chicago

Offline denny

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2020, 06:16:22 PM »
In my limited testing, the 2 batches I had tested that were FWH measured 10% more IBUs that the same beer with only a 60 min. addition.  But they didn t taste more bitter and a lot of the testers thought the same.  There's no way you can put a number on it, though, since it's subjective sensory.  And remember, an IBU is not always the same in terms of perception.  It's all up to you.
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Offline michaeltrego

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2020, 06:42:29 PM »
I use FWH IBU calculated as 75% of a 60 minute addition. For my BoPils I target 45 IBU total with typically 1/3 of the hops as FWH, 1/3 at 60 minutes and 1/3 at 25 minutes. As Denny mentioned, the FWH seem to be a smoother bitterness, but who knows it could just be our imaginations!

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2020, 07:43:05 PM »
I use FWH IBU calculated as 75% of a 60 minute addition. For my BoPils I target 45 IBU total with typically 1/3 of the hops as FWH, 1/3 at 60 minutes and 1/3 at 25 minutes. As Denny mentioned, the FWH seem to be a smoother bitterness, but who knows it could just be our imaginations!
I was actually just thinking I would do one ounce as a FWH and two ounces at the start of the boil so that would be in line with your 1/3 concept.  According to that I would end up around 27 IBUs.   I suppose the other option is to cut the source water with 25% distilled water and soften things up a bit and then just stick with 2 ounces FWH and 2 ounces at the start of the boil.  The softer water might take the edge off the hops a bit.  Thanks guys.   
Ken from Chicago

Offline chinaski

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2020, 09:01:33 PM »
In my limited testing, the 2 batches I had tested that were FWH measured 10% more IBUs that the same beer with only a 60 min. addition.  But they didn t taste more bitter and a lot of the testers thought the same.  There's no way you can put a number on it, though, since it's subjective sensory.  And remember, an IBU is not always the same in terms of perception.  It's all up to you.
I've used roughly the 20 min. addition utilization rate many times and its a good fit for me, my buds, and my brewery.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2020, 09:49:36 PM »
I don’t make a lot of hoppy beers, so I go with modest FWH and a late flame out addition for most beers.

I rely on the calculators, but I am not afraid to bump the FWH up or down for particular styles based on what hop I am using.  FWIW,, I favor German Magnum as my FWH in most beers.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2020, 09:56:55 PM »
I don’t make a lot of hoppy beers, so I go with modest FWH and a late flame out addition for most beers.

I rely on the calculators, but I am not afraid to bump the FWH up or down for particular styles based on what hop I am using.  FWIW,, I favor German Magnum as my FWH in most beers.
... and do you look at IBU calculations and shrug because you are familiar with the recipes you're brewing or do you punch in a hop addition as a bittering addition (start of boil) and just do it as a FWH and assume it's close enough?

I see that I did one awhile back with 1.5 ounces of 3.8% hallertau as a FWH and then another 1.5 ounces at the start of boil.  It was okay.  I did another one with just .5 ounces FWH and 2 ounces start of boil and it was also good.  I suppose there is some flexibility here.
Ken from Chicago

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2020, 12:23:56 AM »
I treat FWH as if they were added 10 minutes longer than the boil time. For example, with 60-minute boil, calculate IBUs for 70 minutes. Or maybe 75. In the ballpark.

Personally I very rarely do FWH because for one I usually would forget! And for another, I don’t think it provides any discernible value whatsoever. 
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2020, 12:35:28 AM »
I don’t make a lot of hoppy beers, so I go with modest FWH and a late flame out addition for most beers.

I rely on the calculators, but I am not afraid to bump the FWH up or down for particular styles based on what hop I am using.  FWIW,, I favor German Magnum as my FWH in most beers.
... and do you look at IBU calculations and shrug because you are familiar with the recipes you're brewing or do you punch in a hop addition as a bittering addition (start of boil) and just do it as a FWH and assume it's close enough?

I see that I did one awhile back with 1.5 ounces of 3.8% hallertau as a FWH and then another 1.5 ounces at the start of boil.  It was okay.  I did another one with just .5 ounces FWH and 2 ounces start of boil and it was also good.  I suppose there is some flexibility here.

It depends on the style.  For those that I have done many iterations, I just go with the seat of my pants approach, regardless of what the calculator says the result might be.  For something new (style or ingredient) I will go with the calculator and then adjust from there on the next batch, based on my perception.

I probably use far less hops than most folks, generally.  Say for a 10 gallon batch of German Pilsner 1.5-2 ozs of 12.8% Magnum FWH, with an ounce each of Mittelfrüh 3.8% and Hallertauer 3.6% at knockout, with no hopstand and proceeding to chill.  Pellets almost exclusively.  Works for me.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2020, 03:26:40 AM »
I don’t make a lot of hoppy beers, so I go with modest FWH and a late flame out addition for most beers.

I rely on the calculators, but I am not afraid to bump the FWH up or down for particular styles based on what hop I am using.  FWIW,, I favor German Magnum as my FWH in most beers.
... and do you look at IBU calculations and shrug because you are familiar with the recipes you're brewing or do you punch in a hop addition as a bittering addition (start of boil) and just do it as a FWH and assume it's close enough?

I see that I did one awhile back with 1.5 ounces of 3.8% hallertau as a FWH and then another 1.5 ounces at the start of boil.  It was okay.  I did another one with just .5 ounces FWH and 2 ounces start of boil and it was also good.  I suppose there is some flexibility here.

It depends on the style.  For those that I have done many iterations, I just go with the seat of my pants approach, regardless of what the calculator says the result might be.  For something new (style or ingredient) I will go with the calculator and then adjust from there on the next batch, based on my perception.

I probably use far less hops than most folks, generally.  Say for a 10 gallon batch of German Pilsner 1.5-2 ozs of 12.8% Magnum FWH, with an ounce each of Mittelfrüh 3.8% and Hallertauer 3.6% at knockout, with no hopstand and proceeding to chill.  Pellets almost exclusively.  Works for me.
We are similar.  I am not a hophead.  I make a lot of German and Czech styles and many of my recipes are pretty tame on the hops.  I also use pellets exclusively.  Many recipes have just one hop addition at the start of the boil for low IBUs... 18 to 25 on a regular basis.  I also live in Illinois.  Maybe it's contagious.  :D  Cheers.
Ken from Chicago

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2020, 03:29:08 AM »
I treat FWH as if they were added 10 minutes longer than the boil time. For example, with 60-minute boil, calculate IBUs for 70 minutes. Or maybe 75. In the ballpark.

Personally I very rarely do FWH because for one I usually would forget! And for another, I don’t think it provides any discernible value whatsoever.
It sounds like this is becoming the accepted way... slightly more IBUs from a FWH than an addition at the start of the boil.  On one hand it makes sense... the hops are in contact with the wort longer although the temp of the wort is lower.  OTOH, it shoots down the concept of treating it like a 20m addition or at least it muddies the water. 
Ken from Chicago

Offline tommymorris

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2020, 03:43:02 AM »
I use the BeerSmith default: 10% more than Tinseth would calculate for a regular addition of the same length.

I don’t dispute anyone else’s method though.  I think we each just use what works for us and learn what number matches what our taste buds like.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2020, 12:18:08 PM »
I wonder if the 15-minute equivalency is mis-attributed to FWH but perhaps was meant to apply to mash hopping. This would make far more sense including the “smooth bitterness”.  Probably just coincidence but makes far more sense.
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Online BrewBama

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2020, 01:20:00 PM »
I don’t do FWH because I like to skim the foam in the beginning of the boil.

I’ve been adding my hops later and later in the boil these days. Plenty of bitterness and seeking more flavor.

My issue is I’ve been doing extended hop stands so calculating a boil addition carry over to the end of the hop stand had left me with some interesting results.


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Offline denny

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Re: What is the latest on IBU calculation for a FWH addition?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2020, 01:46:50 PM »
I treat FWH as if they were added 10 minutes longer than the boil time. For example, with 60-minute boil, calculate IBUs for 70 minutes. Or maybe 75. In the ballpark.

Personally I very rarely do FWH because for one I usually would forget! And for another, I don’t think it provides any discernible value whatsoever.
It sounds like this is becoming the accepted way... slightly more IBUs from a FWH than an addition at the start of the boil.  On one hand it makes sense... the hops are in contact with the wort longer although the temp of the wort is lower.  OTOH, it shoots down the concept of treating it like a 20m addition or at least it muddies the water.

The accepted way is whatever you want.  Ken, you're looking for an answer that doesn't exist. It's completely subjective. What you're trying to do is like trying to quantify aroma or taste.
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