Author Topic: Munich as substitute for caramel malt  (Read 1242 times)

Offline allenhuerta

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2020, 06:58:33 PM »
I've been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don't know happened between when I left and got back.

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Offline denny

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2020, 07:16:43 PM »
I've been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don't know happened between when I left and got back.

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Seems like it just became trendy,  like hazy IPA and sour beers.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2020, 08:29:22 PM »
I've been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don't know happened between when I left and got back.

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IPAs happened.

The thinking is that the darker C malts have flavors that clash with the citrus, fruity, piney hop flavors.

Citrus and raisin flavors, not do much.

Pine and plum and dark sugar, no.

The light Crystal malts like C10 to C20 are more sweet, so that goes with citrus and fruit.
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Offline allenhuerta

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2020, 08:33:07 PM »

IPAs happened.



I hear what you're saying but they were fine in IPA's like 5+ years ago. I left the states right after Heady came out/got big and then when I came back I didn't understand anything anymore lol

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Offline erockrph

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2020, 11:06:17 PM »
I've been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don't know happened between when I left and got back.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

IPAs happened.

The thinking is that the darker C malts have flavors that clash with the citrus, fruity, piney hop flavors.

Citrus and raisin flavors, not do much.

Pine and plum and dark sugar, no.

The light Crystal malts like C10 to C20 are more sweet, so that goes with citrus and fruit.
That's an interesting take, but I bet some of these new fruity hops would pair quite well with darker crystal flavors, especially ones with a lot of stone fruit character.

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2020, 01:34:46 AM »
I've been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don't know happened between when I left and got back.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

IPAs happened.

The thinking is that the darker C malts have flavors that clash with the citrus, fruity, piney hop flavors.

Citrus and raisin flavors, not do much.

Pine and plum and dark sugar, no.

The light Crystal malts like C10 to C20 are more sweet, so that goes with citrus and fruit.
That's an interesting take, but I bet some of these new fruity hops would pair quite well with darker crystal flavors, especially ones with a lot of stone fruit character.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I agree with your comment. Strata might be the one to try with darker crystal malt. There are a couple of others.

The general notion was first talked about by Vinnie Cilurzu about 10 years ago. It worked with the hops he was using. He was correct.

I was looking at some historic Barley Perkins recipes this evening. The amount of dark Crystal malts and Invert Sugars was something that bucks the current trends. The hops were Fuggles and EKG so it would work.

 

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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2020, 03:48:11 PM »
What I have noticed with the IPA surge is that beer is losing its malt backbone.  Most American IPAs are way out of balance.

Offline denny

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2020, 06:07:59 PM »
What I have noticed with the IPA surge is that beer is losing its malt backbone.  Most American IPAs are way out of balance.

Balance is a personal preference.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2020, 06:20:05 PM »
Balance is a personal preference.

I guess that there is some truth in that statement, but what I am tasting today leaves a lot to the imagination with respect to it being a malt-based beverage.  Pretty much all I taste and smell is hops.  It is not even bitterness per so.  The flavor is almost all late hop additions.  If one cannot taste the malt in beer, than it is a stunt, not beer.

Offline denny

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2020, 06:28:07 PM »
Balance is a personal preference.

I guess that there is some truth in that statement, but what I am tasting today leaves a lot to the imagination with respect to it being a malt-based beverage.  Pretty much all I taste and smell is hops.  It is not even bitterness per so.  The flavor is almost all late hop additions.  If one cannot taste the malt in beer, than it is a stunt, not beer.

I agree, but I don't see it as a universal issue.  In just had several IPAs from Long Beach brewing in LA that were masterpieces of balance.  Lots of malt flavor, including honey malt, but wonderful forward hop flavor and aroma with a bracing bitterness. I've said it before, but you can't judge all beer just by what you find locallly.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 01:51:32 PM by denny »
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Offline skyler

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Re: Munich as substitute for caramel malt
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2020, 06:17:02 PM »
Once something in a hobby looks like, "the modern/new/science-based method," tons of newcomers latch on without first learning "the old ways." With craft beer, the interesting thing is that a lot of pro brewers (or brewery owners) have only just opened up or started brewing in the post-IPA world. Everyone has their own personal taste, but plenty of people don't actually know their personal preference because they haven't tried it a different way.

When you are a newbie brewing extract beer or a newbie all-grain brewer brewing with top shelf ingredients purchased at your LHBS with $4 per ounce hops and $2 per lb base malt, you are less likely to want to try anything "old-fashioned" because you're dropping $70 into this batch of beer and really need it to be great to justify the expense/mess/sunk cost of the $150 starter kit. At least that's how I felt as a new brewer. Then the "newest" information was on the Northern Brewer forums and coming from people like Kai and Denny. IPA was an emerging style and brewers were only just starting to challenge the "malt backbone" premise in a minor way by adding sugar to their double IPA to make it more drinkable (Vinnie's Pliny recipe appeared groundbreaking for adding a lot of sugar). Prior to releasing the Pliny recipe, I thought that a DIPA needed more specialty malts to balance the high IBUs.

There are always people who want to drink clear yellow beer, too. It's refreshing, having a beer that is as close to feeling like sparkling water as possible, while having great hop flavor. I think the lack of great pale lager (there used to be a lot more bar/shelf space dedicated to premium import lagers that filled that niche) is also part of the top-selling craft style adopting more pilsner or blond ale-like qualities. The first time I had Pfriem's Blonde IPA, it was pretty revelatory. I felt the same way about a beer called Four Squared that I had in Texas (I believe it was billed as a dry-hopped double blond ale). So it's not like hoppy beers without crystal are bad, it's just that, IMO, the avoidance of crystal malt comes more from familiarity with its exclusion than from distaste with its inclusion among brewers of a certain generation. And the only reason it's problematic is that crystal malt is a worthy ingredient that deserves some consideration in more than porters and brown ales. For one thing, I am curious about the purported benefits in flavor stability that come from additions of crystal malts and carapils. The benefits in mouthfeel and head are pretty clear, too.

I know many of the IPAs that have the best malt flavor to me tend to have CaraHell in them and that many of the hoppy red ales I have enjoyed over the years have had some sort of crystal in the 70-140L range, so I tend to include light crystal malts in my IPAs and darker crystal malts in hoppy red ales that I brew. Could I achieve approximately the same color with Munich malt and Carafa/Blackprinz? Sure. Would it taste the same/similar? No.