Author Topic: How long do you ferement  (Read 2941 times)

Offline denny

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2020, 01:03:53 pm »
Keep in mind that HlenTinseth has said his formula won't necessarily be accurate for anyone but him.

"Good enough" is better than nothing, IMO.

Agreed.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2020, 01:44:47 pm »
May I ask how you calculate your IBU's ?
Thanks

Rooster, you may be interested in my quick & dirty method for IBU calculation. It comes extremely close to Tinseth method and can be figured out on a scrap paper or napkin or maybe even in your head.  Here’s what I do:



Cheers.

Thanks, were close, my formula is for 4.25 gallons.
When I adjust the formula for your 5 gallons and hops, it comes to 36.5, yours is 40.
Close enough for me. And the difference is not factoring my hop utilization loss due to
concentrated wort, which the formula is set for.  If I find my notes we will be much closer.
Like Denny said above, my formula is only good for me.  Were both close enough for what
it's used for.  Like BrewBama mentioned, adjust for personal taste from there.  I think were
all good to go.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 02:50:41 am by Fire Rooster »

Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2020, 01:50:07 pm »
May I ask how you calculate your IBU's ?

That is one thing that I do not bother calculating anymore.  I bitter using AAUs and taste.  For one, I do not have an exact acid alpha (AA) content of the hops I am using.  I merely have the AA content when the hops were analyzed and a crop year.  Secondly, I have seen enough people send beers away for IBU analysis that did not come back anywhere near what was calculated that I have given up on the Tinseth and Rager methods.  Both methods are approximations, but I guess that they are better than nothing when starting out with a newly designed recipe if one is attempting to brew to style. The reality is that without a quality lab, AAUs are as accurate a method of specifying bitterness as calculated IBUs at the home level.  The only hops that truly count toward base bitterness are the kettle hops.  Sure, late hop additions add bitterness, but they are in the boil for such a short amount of time that isomerization is incomplete.  Alpha acid is insoluble in water.  It has to be converted to iso-alpha acid, which is an isomerized (chemically changed) form of alpha acid before it will dissolved in water.  That is why the hops added at the start of the are known as bittering hops and the hops that are added near the end of the boil are known as finishing hops.

My beef with the whole brewing software thing is that it attempting to insert precision where none is possible. I hold undergraduate and graduate degrees in the engineering side of computer science; therefore, to me, it is apparent that what brewing software calculates is little more than an illusion. Any bitterness or yeast cell calculations should be taken with a grain of salt.  In my article entitled "Yeast Cultures Are Like Nuclear Weapons,"  I cover the yeast calculator fallacy.  That only way one is going to know for certain how many cells one is pitching is to take a sample from the starter and count viable cells on a hemocytometer.  Very few amateur brewers are going to go through this trouble, so throw the darn yeast calculator away and work with knowns.   One, if a starter makes it to high krausen without exhausting the medium first, it has hit maximum cell density.  The average maximum cell density for brewing yeasts is 200 billion cells per liter.   The difference between 200 billion cells and 400 billion cells is 90 minutes of propagation time at ale fermentation temperatures.  The propagation time for the average White Labs culture in a 1L starter is two replication periods (180 minutes at room temperature), which means that the time between inoculating the starter medium and it being ready to pitch is usually under 12 hours, often significantly under 12 hours.

My advice to any new brewer is to skip using brewing software at least until one knows how to perform all of the brewing calculation using pencil paper.  For example, calculating strike water temp is a very simple exercise in thermodynamics based on something know as specific heat.  Twenty pounds of grain has as much specific heat as one gallon of water (i.e., one pound of grain is equal to 0.05 gallons of water specific heat-wise).  For example, we are mashing 10 pounds at 1.25 quarts per pound of grist, giving us 10 * 1.25 = 12.5 quarts (3.125 gallons) of strike liquor.  Ten pounds of grain is equal to 0.5 gallons of water specific heat-wise.  If our grain is at 70F when we mash-in, how hot does the strike liquor have to be at mash-in to come to rest at 150F?  Well, we need to have the equivalent of 3.625 (3.125 strike liquor + 0.5 specific heat of the grist with respect to 1 gallon of water) gallons of water specific heat-wise come to rest at 150F.   

Multiplying 3.625 by 150, yields 543.75

Subtracting 0.5 (the heat content provided by the grist in with respect to water) * 70 = 35 degrees from 543.75 yields 169 degrees F

We need 3.125 gallons of water at 169F to hit our strike temperature; however, unless the mash tun has been pre-heated, it will sink heat from the mash until its temperature stabliizes with that of the tun.  That is why we usually mash-in with 172F degree strike water at 1.25 quarts per pound when using a cooler mash tum to achieve a rest temperature of 150F.  It is that simple.

In the end, I am firm believer that starting out with brewing software keeps smart people stupid.  The only calculation in brewing that requires a computer is mineral additions.  Mineral additions be calculated by hand, but it is not fun.  That is one thing on which Denny and I firmly believe. Denny s old-school like me.  We had to learn all of the calculation in brewing before we could brew all-grain beer.  That is also why we can formulate a recipe and a process without brewing software.  Working this way, a brewer develops rules of thumb over time.

Thank You
Scary, I use 172 degree strike water,
and water/grain ratio of 1.25.

For what it's worth I started with (gasp) Mr Beer (Christmas 2018).
Quickly moved to DME, then to steeping grains.
Shortly after that moved to all grain where my knowledge,
and quality of beers have greatly increased.  Started all
grain using recipes found online, then a thought, I can do this.
Created my own recipes ever since.  All my beers now
(on a scale of 1-10) are an 8.  The 9-10 rating has alluded me thus far.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 03:00:38 am by Fire Rooster »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2020, 03:02:44 pm »
I think fermentation temperature is also a big factor. Yeast is much less active at 48F than 65F.

The beer I brewed yesterday is ripping along at 95F.  8)

Kveik yeast that was pitched at 84F.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2020, 04:16:04 am »
Mark, if I may.....you seem to have fallen into one of the traps I did.  You are implying that everyone should brew for the same reasons you do.  Your thought process is great for you, but so far from why I brew.  Pleaseunderstnd that not all homebrewers have the same goals and that different methods work for different people.  It took me a long time to learn that.

You have I had been involved with this hobby for a long time.  You have stuck with it with more consistency.  Life changes caused me to stop brewing for two periods of time. When we started to brew, there were no such thing as a instant all-grain brewer.  That was partly due to a lack of infrastructure, but mostly due to the amount of knowledge that needed to be acquired to brew all-grain beer.  For example, I did not know anyone who brewed all-grain when I started to brew all-grain.  The progress was kit beer (often "can and kilo" kits) -> extract-based recipes -> partial mashing -> all-grain.  This progression was due in large part to how Charlie's book was laid out.  At each step, important information was learned that allowed one to move on to the next stage.  The biggest hurdle to getting to all-grain was equipment and adjusting to the reality that all-grain meant moving out of the kitchen, often brewing outside if one did not have a garage.  What we refer to as brew burners today were known as camp stoves (Camp Chef) and crab/crawfish boliers (Cajun Cooker).  These stoves were not purpose built for brewing. The Cajun-style crab/crawfish burners were little more than a pipe with a propane orifice.  They looked and sounded like jet engines.  There was no such thing as an off-the-shelf brewing kettle and large stockpots were only available through restaurant suppliers, which generally only did business-to-business sales, which is why the keggle was born. I do not understand why anyone would want to use a keggle in this day and age because they horribly inefficient from a fuel point, but many still do.

Contrast that reality with today, a person can walk into a homebrewing store, purchase a complete all-grain setup and software, and bypass acquiring almost of the knowledge that used to be necessary to get to all-grain.  Is that person a brewer?  He/she is not in book.  He/she is living the "brewing lifestyle."  I have seen the same darn thing happen in my other long-lived avocation, guitar.  I have been playing lead and rhythm guitar since high school.  I did the semi-professional, weekend warrior thing when I was young. Back then, we were musicians. Today, there is the "guitar lifestyle" where people who can barely play purchase expensive instruments and hang them on their walls like they are true musicians.  Now, like owning an expensive guitar that one can barely play, it is becoming fashionable to become a brewer.  However, unlike playing an instrument that requires having to spend time in the woodshed building one's chops to pass oneself off as a musician, all a person who is living the brewing lifestyle has to do is use software that will provide the information a brewer needed to know to brew an acceptable beer.  In essence, brewing knowledge has been "canned" (often wrong, but that is another topic).   One can argue that can and kilo kits were canned knowledge, but it was evident from the taste of the product that the canned knowledge was at the low water threshold.

In the end one is either passionate about one's pursuits or one is not. Most of the people on this forum are passionate about some aspect of brewing. However, there is no denying that the people who have been at it for a while have acquired all of the knowledge needed to brew without having to use software.  From brewhouse math and physics to mastering quality control to mastering styles, I see that in a lot of posters.  I never want to see this avocation lose the passion that advanced it to this point; therefore, once again, a group does not build itself up by dumbing things down.  While I am not a brewing club kind of guy,  I believe that the well-organized clubs provide a valuable service for new brewers. The Maltose Falcons are a prime example.  While everyone who has ever been in that club could not be described as a hardcore brewer, there is no denying that that club has had a major impact on the hobby.   

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2020, 05:21:26 am »
I liken the concept and progression in brewing to learning to swim in the shallow end of the pool and progressing to diving into the depths, eventually.  Everyone in the pool is swimming, but the truly inquisitive want to know what’s out there.

As to how long I ferment, the Tilt has made life much easier...I used to ferment a month in the primary, but now I ferment under pressure or spund.  I use a floating dip tube and routinely rack after 5-7 days.  But that is only if my gravity says the beer is ready.  This is a grand hobby.  Cheers.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline denny

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2020, 08:37:11 am »
The longer I brew, the more I become interested in the enjoyment and the less I become interested in the product and science behind it.  I say I've been through the science part and come out the other side.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline EnkAMania

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2020, 11:19:50 am »
I liken the concept and progression in brewing to learning to swim in the shallow end of the pool and progressing to diving into the depths, eventually.  Everyone in the pool is swimming, but the truly inquisitive want to know what’s out there.

As to how long I ferment, the Tilt has made life much easier...I used to ferment a month in the primary, but now I ferment under pressure or spund.  I use a floating dip tube and routinely rack after 5-7 days.  But that is only if my gravity says the beer is ready.  This is a grand hobby.  Cheers.

Since working from home, I check the gravity daily.
Some day we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2020, 12:50:30 pm »
The longer I brew, the more I become interested in the enjoyment and the less I become interested in the product and science behind it.  I say I've been through the science part and come out the other side.

So your dive took you deeper than anyone, I presume!  I agree that enjoyment is my greater interest, but I am amazed at the innovation and discovery by others as I tread water!
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline denny

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2020, 01:10:30 pm »
The longer I brew, the more I become interested in the enjoyment and the less I become interested in the product and science behind it.  I say I've been through the science part and come out the other side.

So your dive took you deeper than anyone, I presume!  I agree that enjoyment is my greater interest, but I am amazed at the innovation and discovery by others as I tread water!

Yeah.  I try to incorporate that into my knowledge base and try things that seem appropriate to my goals.  Latest is the short cold dry hop.  Proof than an old dog can learn new tricks.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2020, 05:30:50 am »
I liken the concept and progression in brewing to learning to swim in the shallow end of the pool and progressing to diving into the depths, eventually.  Everyone in the pool is swimming, but the truly inquisitive want to know what’s out there.

As to how long I ferment, the Tilt has made life much easier...I used to ferment a month in the primary, but now I ferment under pressure or spund.  I use a floating dip tube and routinely rack after 5-7 days.  But that is only if my gravity says the beer is ready.  This is a grand hobby.  Cheers.
For what it is worth on timing of fermentation, I brewed Saturday and this is the Tilt reading as of Monday afternoon:




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Offline BrewBama

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How long do you ferement
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2020, 06:31:55 am »
I’ve learned the Tilt cannot be trusted for finish gravity. I usually get a clump of yeast on it skewing the reading. Some ferments may not produce as much to skew the results but the ones I’ve experienced have.

The more useful tool is the chart from Google Sheets (below) because it tells me when fermentation is complete and for those who spund regularly it can be used to signal when to transfer.

...but I use a finish hydrometer to adjust the final reading. More often than not FG reported by Tilt is ~5 points low when measured by my FG hydrometer.

I like to transfer fairly quickly after fermentation is complete because I don’t want to have still beer begin to pick up O2. Some say the yeast ‘clean up’ after themselves given more time to sit but I’ve never experienced any detriment to transferring right away.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 06:46:12 am by BrewBama »

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2020, 09:37:57 am »
I’ve learned the Tilt cannot be trusted for finish gravity. I usually get a clump of yeast on it skewing the reading. Some ferments may not produce as much to skew the results but the ones I’ve experienced have.

The more useful tool is the chart from Google Sheets (below) because it tells me when fermentation is complete and for those who spund regularly it can be used to signal when to transfer.

...but I use a finish hydrometer to adjust the final reading. More often than not FG reported by Tilt is ~5 points low when measured by my FG hydrometer.

I like to transfer fairly quickly after fermentation is complete because I don’t want to have still beer begin to pick up O2. Some say the yeast ‘clean up’ after themselves given more time to sit but I’ve never experienced any detriment to transferring right away.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That is pretty high tech.  I just ferment under pressure most of the time anymore and wait until I get a consistent reading on the gravity from the Tilt.  Yeast clumps or not, when it is holding steady for a day or two, I can reasonable assume it is okay to rack.  Since I use the Clear Draught system, I get pretty clear results overall, if I wait a few more days (or I will spund sometimes a few points above expected FG  when not going with a pressure ferment).  This beer dropped two more points overnight, FWIW....
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Offline BrewBama

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How long do you ferement
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2020, 10:56:40 am »
... Yeast clumps or not, when it is holding steady for a day or two, I can reasonable assume it is okay to rack.  Since I use the Clear Draught system, I get pretty clear results overall....



Edit: that’s what I do.


That is pretty high tech. ....

It’s a lot lower tech than you might imagine. I simply name the beer, push a button to tell the Tilt to log and it just happens.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 10:32:17 am by BrewBama »

Big Monk

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Re: How long do you ferement
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2020, 06:50:31 am »
I wait for the beer to tell me it is done.  That is when one sees the beer start to clear.  If is the yeast is not floculating (clumping together) or sedimenting (falling out of suspension), it has not completed its job.

These days, if and when I get the chance to brew, I am typically bottling with some calculated amount of residual extract determined by the results of my FFT and careful measurement. Since I am finishing fermentation in the bottle, i.e. “bottle spunding”, what you describe is my visual indicator for completion of fermentation. When I see the beer visually clear up in the bottles, I put a single bottle in the fridge as my sensory example. After tasting that I start to migrate bottles in after a few more days, marking them with their completion time and extra time after clearing so I get a good idea about their flavor development.

Not uncommon to go grain to glass in < 9 days.