Author Topic: House Yeast Culture?  (Read 2820 times)

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
House Yeast Culture?
« on: August 29, 2020, 09:31:30 am »
I have never really had a house yeast culture because studying yeast has always been big part of the hobby.  BrewTek CL-170 Classic British Ale came close, but it was more of a re-occuring theme than a house culture.  I recently watched a White Labs video where Chris White and Charlie P. discussed the renaming of Cry Havoc and its history.  What struck me my was Charlie's assertion that he used it for everything because he wanted to know what altering the ingredients and process brought to the table.  In essence, it was his one constant in complex set of variables.

With that said, how many people have what they would consider to be a house culture?  I know that Denny is fond of CL-50 and BrewBama uses BRY-97 because it best fits his brewing situation.  What about everyone else?  I am thinking about limiting myself to one ale culture and one lager culture.  I am pretty much dialed into W-34/70 as my lager culture, but my ale culture is still undecided.  It will probably be a while before I start a new yeast bank; therefore, I am looking for a stable culture that I can repitch indefinitely.  To me, that means true top-cropper to me because it is easier to select what part of the culture I want to crop. It helps that I prefer British-style bitter to American-style ale.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25636
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2020, 09:46:54 am »
Minor correction, Mark....I use 1450, not CL-50.  It may have started like that, but it changed many years ago.  Shortly after MB sold off the bank to someplace in CO (IIRC) I started noticing differences.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2020, 10:33:08 am »
Okay, it's 1450!  I noticed that CL-170 drifted over the decade that I had it in my bank.  The culture you originally obtained had to drift even further given the amount of time between when you acquired it and when it was deposited in Wyeast's bank.

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2020, 10:43:14 am »
Shortly after MB sold off the bank to someplace in CO (IIRC) I started noticing differences.

It sounds like these guys may have been the recipients of the bank: https://brewingscience.com/yeast-library/?sf_paged=5


Offline Bob357

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Consensus means nothing to me. I am who I am.
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2020, 11:02:01 am »
Mangrove Jack's M36 Liberty Bell is quickly becoming my house yeast. I mostly brew APAs and IPAs, but mix in an occasional Stout, ESB or Golden Ale as well. With attenuation in the mid to high 70% range, high flocculation and some mild esters, it does a great job with all of these styles.
Beer is my bucket list,

Bob357
Fallon, NV

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25636
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2020, 11:13:44 am »
Shortly after MB sold off the bank to someplace in CO (IIRC) I started noticing differences.

It sounds like these guys may have been the recipients of the bank: https://brewingscience.com/yeast-library/?sf_paged=5

No, it was before that.  It went to a very small place in CO (?) thayy was a homebrew shop IIRC.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2020, 11:26:07 am »
Mangrove Jack's M36 Liberty Bell is quickly becoming my house yeast.

From the culture's name and fermentation characteristics, my bet is on this culture being Anchor's ale strain in dry form.

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2020, 11:41:11 am »
By the way, several of the dry yeast cultures provide enough information in their descriptions to determine their origin.  For example, S-04 is the same culture as Wyeast 1098 and US-05 is the same culture as Wyeast 1056.  There slight differences due to S-04 and US-05 being isolates of the original cultures as well as being propagated under aerobic conditions in a bioreactor.  It makes perfect sense that Fermentis would offer 1056 and 1098 in dry form.  They are two of Wyeast's original yeast cultures.  A lot of recipes were created that used one of these two strains in the 90s. S-04 has 1098's unique ester profile and its characteristic tart note due to acid production.

Offline skyler

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • Hmm. Human music. I like it.
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2020, 12:04:44 pm »
Mangrove Jack's M36 Liberty Bell is quickly becoming my house yeast.

From the culture's name and fermentation characteristics, my bet is on this culture being Anchor's ale strain in dry form.

I don't think it is. AFAIK, MJ's yeasts are repackaged dry yeast from other companies. I believe their "Liberty Bell" to be S-04 and their "M44 U.S. West Coast Yeast" is BRY-97. That said, I have read reports that "Liberty Bell" might be Windsor or Lallemand London ESB, but I have never heard of those strains getting into the high 70's in attenuation. Of course, if OP mashes low or adds simple sugars to his beer, then that's another story. There's also always the possibility that MJ mixes strains in their repackaging. I know of some brewers intentionally blending London ESB with Nottingham or S-04 with US-05 to get the best of both world.

Offline EnkAMania

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 485
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2020, 12:21:07 pm »
WLP001 California Ale is my most used yeast.
Some day we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny

Offline Bob357

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Consensus means nothing to me. I am who I am.
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2020, 01:03:35 pm »
You might be right on the Liberty Bell being S-04. US West Coast is much more attenuative than BRY-97. We're talking 77 to 85% vs. 68 to 76%. It's a lot more flocculent than US-05 too, so I'd rule that out as well. I seldom use US West Coast, as I don't care for super dry beers as a rule. I have a suspicion that some of the MJ yeasts are blends, which would explain their not aligning well with some other popular strains as well as their recommending you not harvest for reuse.
Beer is my bucket list,

Bob357
Fallon, NV

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2020, 04:02:13 pm »
You might be right on the Liberty Bell.

Liberty Bell is not BRY-97.  It is Anchor's ale strain, which we are not certain is Anchor's ale strain.  Plus, there is the whole propagation in a bioreactor thing.  In light of new findings, BRY-97 appears to be an isolate of BRY-96.  The brewery where BRY-97 originated has yet to be disclosed.  We have to remember that every culture mutates over time because most cultures are repitched many times before being re-isolated.  How strain is cropped determines what path it takes.  We are talking about brewery selective pressure.  I have seen selective pressure in action with my sourdough culture.  Through re-propagating and discarding at a specific interval, I was able to shift the balance of the microflora in the culture.  That is how selective pressure works.

Offline skyler

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • Hmm. Human music. I like it.
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2020, 07:05:14 pm »
You might be right on the Liberty Bell being S-04. US West Coast is much more attenuative than BRY-97. We're talking 77 to 85% vs. 68 to 76%. It's a lot more flocculent than US-05 too, so I'd rule that out as well. I seldom use US West Coast, as I don't care for super dry beers as a rule. I have a suspicion that some of the MJ yeasts are blends, which would explain their not aligning well with some other popular strains as well as their recommending you not harvest for reuse.

I get identical performance from M44 and BRY-97. Both are pretty attentuative and pretty flocculant. Both have a 24-48 hour delay that I don't get from other dry yeasts. That said, it could be a blend. I am pretty sure the "New World Strong Ale" is Nottingham, in part because I deplore Nottingham -- it has a particular tartness that I dislike strongly. I recall a while back reading that it was "dry pacman" and so I tried it and immediately thought, "that's Notty." It took a long time for that keg to kick.

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 5278
House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2020, 06:16:59 am »
.... Both have a 24-48 hour delay that I don't get from other dry yeasts.

I use Bry-97 90+% of the time coupled with 2 tsp Fermax in a 5 gal batch.

Many have experienced really long lag times with Bry-97. I also used to experience this frustrating lag (I’ve seen 36 hrs!) until  I began using the yeast per the mfr instructions.

When the proper pitch rate recommended by the mfr is used, I consistently see 16 hrs +/- 2 hr lag.  I brew in the AM which puts me in the fermenter by noon-ish and the next morning I can see where the first ‘blip’ on the Tilt was as I slept. It’s 14 hrs more often than not, but I have seen up to 18 hrs.  It is very predictable.

To pitch, I weight out the required amount of yeast into a ramekin, measure out the Fermax right on top of the yeast. As I am filling the fermenter I toss the mixture into the wort. The filling action reduces clumping.

Despite what home brewers on the internet say, I believe one 11 gram package of dried yeast is inadequate for 5 gal of wort given the mfr guidelines. Rarely is one 11g pack recommended by their pitch rate calculator. My 5 gal batch 1.05x beers usually call for somewhere closer to ~14g.  1 pkg is only ~75% of the recommendation.

I live by the ‘close enough is good enough’ mantra in my brewery but in my world close enough would be mid to high 90(s) vs mid to high 70(s). 1 pkg ain’t close.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 08:10:38 am by BrewBama »

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: House Yeast Culture?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2020, 07:27:52 am »
.... Both have a 24-48 hour delay that I don't get from other dry yeasts.

When the proper pitch rate recommended by the mfr is used, I consistently see 16 hrs +/- 2 hr lag.  I brew in the AM which puts me in the fermenter by noon-ish and the next morning I can see where the first ‘blip’ on the Tilt was as I slept. It’s 14 hrs more often than not, but I have seen up to 18 hrs.  It is very predictable.
This has been my (admittedly limited) experience with BRY-97.  I usually add a Servo. capsule to the boil and put 3 gallons into the fermenter.  I pitch 1 pack as the fermenter is filling which, depending on gravity, might be a slight overpitch, but probably not by much.

I have to say, aside from the occasional Saison, I could probably brew all of my beers with either Denny’s Favorite 1450 or Bama’s Favorite BRY-97.

I do like to try and mix it up though, for kicks.