[waltsmalt]

The original instructions say that high krausen (defined as maximum cell density, not maximum CO2 production) is usually reached 12-18 hours after pitching the yeast into the shaken starter wort. That can be slowed down by lower temperatures, but 60 hours seems way too long.

Agree.  I generally pitch at around 10PM the night before a weekend brew day, figuring I'll pitch around 4-5PM the next day, which means about 18 hours.  I find the SNS starter is very active at that point in time.  So far I have been very happy with the results.

[HopDen]

Count me as a convert! First time making a SNS starter. 1-16 oz can Propper Starter, 16oz distilled water and 1 pkg of WLP570. Large volume batch so I made 3- starters, each one in a 1 gallon distilled water jug. I started last night at 6pm and when I awoke today I was pleased to see good activity. Hopefully my timing will coincide with my brew day. Should be pitching around noon.

This really is simple!!

[twqqis]

Absolutely loving this thread, thank you Saccharomyces (and others for the discussion)
I want to give SNS a go for my next brew; I'll be starting from frozen 15mL test tubes, which according to the guide will contain 20B cells.
Reference: https://www.homebrewnotes.com/making-a-frozen-stock-yeast-bank/

My understanding with SNS is that one would be pitching a relatively new yeast pack into the 1qt wort, ie a yeast pack with close to "200B" cells.

Would I need to "grow" my 20B up to 200B first?
But then again SNS is not about cell counts, so how would I go about from this test tube?

[Richard]

Well, SNS may not be about cell counts, but you need to be in the right ballpark, and 20 is not close enough to 200. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that you should step up cell counts by about a factor of 10 each time. If you want to step up your population you could add your yeast to 1/10 of a liter of wort, let it ferment out and flocculate, then drain off the liquid and pitch the remaining slurry into a 1 liter SNS starter. That should get you enough healthy yeast.

[twqqis]

Thanks Richard, that is basically what I had in mind

[denny]

Well, SNS may not be about cell counts, but you need to be in the right ballpark, and 20 is not close enough to 200. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that you should step up cell counts by about a factor of 10 each time. If you want to step up your population you could add your yeast to 1/10 of a liter of wort, let it ferment out and flocculate, then drain off the liquid and pitch the remaining slurry into a 1 liter SNS starter. That should get you enough healthy yeast.

Or maybe it is enough https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2021/01/28/yeast-cultures-are-like-nuclear-weapons/

[erockrph]

Well, SNS may not be about cell counts, but you need to be in the right ballpark, and 20 is not close enough to 200. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that you should step up cell counts by about a factor of 10 each time. If you want to step up your population you could add your yeast to 1/10 of a liter of wort, let it ferment out and flocculate, then drain off the liquid and pitch the remaining slurry into a 1 liter SNS starter. That should get you enough healthy yeast.

Or maybe it is enough https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2021/01/28/yeast-cultures-are-like-nuclear-weapons/

Indeeed. 200B cells is generally sold as a "pitchable" quantity for a 5 gallon batch by many yeast suppliers nowadays. If your starter is already healthy and fresh, then it might be good to go without another step.

[narcout]

Well, SNS may not be about cell counts, but you need to be in the right ballpark, and 20 is not close enough to 200. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that you should step up cell counts by about a factor of 10 each time. If you want to step up your population you could add your yeast to 1/10 of a liter of wort, let it ferment out and flocculate, then drain off the liquid and pitch the remaining slurry into a 1 liter SNS starter. That should get you enough healthy yeast.

Maximum yeast cell density is around 200 billion cells per liter.  You aren't going to get any growth pitching 20 billion cells into 1/10 of a liter (you'd be pitching max cell density already). 

[Richard]

Well, SNS may not be about cell counts, but you need to be in the right ballpark, and 20 is not close enough to 200. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that you should step up cell counts by about a factor of 10 each time. If you want to step up your population you could add your yeast to 1/10 of a liter of wort, let it ferment out and flocculate, then drain off the liquid and pitch the remaining slurry into a 1 liter SNS starter. That should get you enough healthy yeast.

Maximum yeast cell density is around 200 billion cells per liter.  You aren't going to get any growth pitching 20 billion cells into 1/10 of a liter (you'd be pitching max cell density already).

That proves what I said:  I'm not an expert! I guess you can pitch 20 B cells into a 1-liter SNS starter and see what happens. It's only beer, and nobody will get hurt.

[denny]

Well, SNS may not be about cell counts, but you need to be in the right ballpark, and 20 is not close enough to 200. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that you should step up cell counts by about a factor of 10 each time. If you want to step up your population you could add your yeast to 1/10 of a liter of wort, let it ferment out and flocculate, then drain off the liquid and pitch the remaining slurry into a 1 liter SNS starter. That should get you enough healthy yeast.

Maximum yeast cell density is around 200 billion cells per liter.  You aren't going to get any growth pitching 20 billion cells into 1/10 of a liter (you'd be pitching max cell density already).

That proves what I said:  I'm not an expert! I guess you can pitch 20 B cells into a 1-liter SNS starter and see what happens. It's only beer, and nobody will get hurt.

For SNS, you have to tell yourself to ignore cell count.

[Don]

I've read thru the thread and I'm generally on board with giving it a try next brew day. Anything that simplifies and/or improves my brew I'm willing to try.
As I was perusing recipes today I found one I'm interested in brewing, but it said this...
"Make two starters representing 60% and 40% of the batch OG. Use a yeast pitch calculator to size them appropriately.
1.049 SG starter White Labs WLP545 Belgian Strong Ale
1.033 SG starter White Labs WLP590 French Saison Ale
Yeasts must be from two separate yeast starters at 60/40 ratio—seriously, this makes the beer what it is!"

I don't get the 60/40 ratio thing and couldn't I just pitch both yeasts into a single starter or should I make two separate starters, SNS style?

[fredthecat]

I've read thru the thread and I'm generally on board with giving it a try next brew day. Anything that simplifies and/or improves my brew I'm willing to try.
As I was perusing recipes today I found one I'm interested in brewing, but it said this...
"Make two starters representing 60% and 40% of the batch OG. Use a yeast pitch calculator to size them appropriately.
1.049 SG starter White Labs WLP545 Belgian Strong Ale
1.033 SG starter White Labs WLP590 French Saison Ale
Yeasts must be from two separate yeast starters at 60/40 ratio—seriously, this makes the beer what it is!"

I don't get the 60/40 ratio thing and couldn't I just pitch both yeasts into a single starter or should I make two separate starters, SNS style?

SNS definitely works, i have no fear or hesitation about starters with it.

instructions in recipes posted online like as you described sort of make me cringe ie. "this is the one secret ingredient!". i wouldnt worry about just making normal starters at a standard say 1.040 gravity and then adding both started to the beer.

the recipe instructions sounds like a silly attempt to control thr imagined growth of the yeasts.

[Don]

I've read thru the thread and I'm generally on board with giving it a try next brew day. Anything that simplifies and/or improves my brew I'm willing to try.
As I was perusing recipes today I found one I'm interested in brewing, but it said this...
"Make two starters representing 60% and 40% of the batch OG. Use a yeast pitch calculator to size them appropriately.
1.049 SG starter White Labs WLP545 Belgian Strong Ale
1.033 SG starter White Labs WLP590 French Saison Ale
Yeasts must be from two separate yeast starters at 60/40 ratio—seriously, this makes the beer what it is!"

I don't get the 60/40 ratio thing and couldn't I just pitch both yeasts into a single starter or should I make two separate starters, SNS style?

SNS definitely works, i have no fear or hesitation about starters with it.

instructions in recipes posted online like as you described sort of make me cringe ie. "this is the one secret ingredient!". i wouldnt worry about just making normal starters at a standard say 1.040 gravity and then adding both started to the beer.

the recipe instructions sounds like a silly attempt to control thr imagined growth of the yeasts.

That's kinda what I was thinking... Thanks for the confirmation!

[denny]

I've read thru the thread and I'm generally on board with giving it a try next brew day. Anything that simplifies and/or improves my brew I'm willing to try.
As I was perusing recipes today I found one I'm interested in brewing, but it said this...
"Make two starters representing 60% and 40% of the batch OG. Use a yeast pitch calculator to size them appropriately.
1.049 SG starter White Labs WLP545 Belgian Strong Ale
1.033 SG starter White Labs WLP590 French Saison Ale
Yeasts must be from two separate yeast starters at 60/40 ratio—seriously, this makes the beer what it is!"

I don't get the 60/40 ratio thing and couldn't I just pitch both yeasts into a single starter or should I make two separate starters, SNS style?

SNS definitely works, i have no fear or hesitation about starters with it.

instructions in recipes posted online like as you described sort of make me cringe ie. "this is the one secret ingredient!". i wouldnt worry about just making normal starters at a standard say 1.040 gravity and then adding both started to the beer.

the recipe instructions sounds like a silly attempt to control thr imagined growth of the yeasts.

Well put.