Author Topic: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains  (Read 1106 times)

Offline roger

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2020, 08:31:43 PM »
Gotta admit, I missed that. You are correct, can't blame the mfr. Thanks.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2020, 12:11:11 AM »
I pitched Diamond yeast for the first time last Saturday.  I rehydrated 3 sachets into 5.5 gallons of Pilsner wort (instructions called for 1-2 g/l) and added it as it attemperated to wort temp. Almost needless to say the beer was at 1.012 this morning (Tuesday).  I expect it to finish around 1.008-1.010 if it acts like 34/70.  I will be harvesting and stepping up to a 10 gallon batch with the slurry.
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Offline narvin

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2020, 02:38:39 AM »
... more obvious for the less experienced brewers. Many may choose to ignore the mfr's recommendation, but at least its a conscious, informed choice.

It’s printed right on the package (see below) “Pitching Rate 1.0g/L”  Not sure how much more obvious they could be. 5 gal = 18.9 liters so.... 18.9 grams.

I brew 5.5 gal in the FV so I’ll end with 5 gal in the keg. Therefore, even without a pitching calculator, I know I’ll need to pitch ~21g of these strains.

No yeast mfr can predict every user situation. Liquid yeast mfr’s recommend starters, dry yeast mfr’s recommend pitch rate by weight.

 



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Americans don't know metric  ;D

How many brewers go to the shop, pick up one pack of yeast, and that's that?  Even liquid yeast is good for 5 gallons of average gravity wort if it's fresh these days.  Obviously this was not the case in the past, but I see this as a step backwards, and a deliberate breach of trust for what used to be a relatively foolproof alternative to liquid yeast.  Manufacturers can do whatever they want, but they should be prepared for some poor reviews by entry level brewers.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 02:49:52 AM by narvin »

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2020, 04:45:00 AM »
Americans don't know metric  ;D

Sadly, that statement is true.  The U.S. is one of the few industrialized nations that has not adopted the metric system.  I will say that once one switches to using the metric system for brewing, it is difficult to go back to using U.S. standard units of measure, at least for culturing. Every unit of measure in the metric system is base 10 and a milliliter of water weighs one gram.  A fluid ounce weighs more than a dry ounce; therefore, making a 10% weight by volume (w/v) solution is not nearly as straight forward using U.S. units of measure.  Since a milliliter of water weighs one gram, a 1L 10% w/v solution requires 1000 * 0.10 = 100 grams of dry malt.   Plus, degrees plato is weight by weight (w/w). However, since the solvent is water and a milliliter of water weighs one gram, w/w is equal to w/v when brewing.  For example, a 1.040 solution is 10 degree plato solution, which makes it a 10% w/v solution.  A simple test to verify this information is to dissolve 100 grams of DME in a 1L solution and take its gravity.  Making a 1L 1.030 solution is just as easy.  An S.G. of 1.030 is 7.5 degrees plato, which means that is a 7.5% w/v solution.  Taking 7.5% of 1000 yields 75 grams of DME.  I challenge anyone to try that with U.S. standard units of measure.  It is not nearly as straight forward.

Online BrewBama

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2020, 01:17:58 PM »
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.


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Offline narvin

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2020, 01:32:21 PM »
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.


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Sure, but I guarantee you that 1) many newer brewers don't read those instructions, they just buy what the person working at the store sells them.  And 2) They have a marketing department that understands what the impact would be if they instead wrote "use 2-3 packs for 5 gallons of beer".  I think my point stands.

Offline denny

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2020, 02:57:49 PM »
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.


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Sure, but I guarantee you that 1) many newer brewers don't read those instructions, they just buy what the person working at the store sells them.  And 2) They have a marketing department that understands what the impact would be if they instead wrote "use 2-3 packs for 5 gallons of beer".  I think my point stands.

I'd like to see some evidence to support your marketing claim.  Based on the people I know there I find it hard to believe unnless you have info I'm unaware of.
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Online BrewBama

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Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2020, 03:42:05 PM »
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.


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Sure, but I guarantee you that 1) many newer brewers don't read those instructions, they just buy what the person working at the store sells them.  And 2) They have a marketing department that understands what the impact would be if they instead wrote "use 2-3 packs for 5 gallons of beer".  I think my point stands.
I actually don’t doubt either point.  In fact, I’d imagine one pack will work just fine. It might take a bit longer or be a bit sluggish. ..but I dunno, maybe not.

I’m just sayin 1) the mfr has recommended a certain pitch rate printed right on the package for the consumer and 2) if the buyer (or sales person in your example) takes two seconds to research their batch size expressed in liters, they’d better understand the mfr recommendation.

As I said before, most brewers just disregard the dry yeast mfr recommendation anyway.

As an example, in John Palmer’s book How to Brew, that is routinely recommended to new brewers, in the very first chapter, very first recipe, he described using two packages of dry yeast. I doubt anyone follows those instructions.


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« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 03:57:16 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline skyler

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2020, 03:47:13 PM »
I'd like to see some evidence to support your marketing claim.  Based on the people I know there I find it hard to believe unnless you have info I'm unaware of.

I mean, there's no reasonable way to get real scientific evidence proving that homebrew newbies are idiots, but I have known enough brewers who SWEAR BY single packs of lager yeast for warm-fermented (ambient temperature in California, not controlled 60F) lagers to produce pilsners and Mexican-style pale lagers that I would be surprised if your "average" brewer actually looks and notices the difference in pitching rates. Add the use of the metric system and I think you knock out another 80% who might have some concept of reading the packaging. That said, I greatly appreciate that they make it as clear as they do on the packaging for people who pay attention and actually do understand  the metric system like myself. That is a great first step from Lallemand. The next step would be getting their retailers educated so that they can help educate consumers, IMO.

When I started brewing, White Labs had these posters in every LHBS that listed a bunch of beer styles and then assigned different strains to different styles with a rating. Like WLP001 would get a perfect score for "American Pale Ale," but only a middling score for "American Wheat Beer" and a low score for "Belgian Dubbel." That poster helped me a lot. That's an example of the company helping retailers educate customers. I suspect Lallemand can do something like that.

Offline Northern_Brewer

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2020, 05:04:28 PM »
Going back to the original question, New England was a complete nightmare for them, obviously 2-3 years ago Conan was "the" strain that everybody wanted and they must have felt a lot of pressure to get it to market, but it took them a long time - and it also took them a long time between releasing the commercial bricks and the retail packs. And yes, some third parties were breaking bricks down into 25g packs to compensate for the low viability.

They must have been very relieved to find that when the excitement moved from Conan to 1318, that the Verdant strain took so well to drying.

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2020, 08:18:56 PM »
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.

A volume of 18.9L is for all intents and purposes 19L when brewing.  We do not need that fine a level of control.

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2020, 08:24:47 PM »
They must have been very relieved to find that when the excitement moved from Conan to 1318, that the Verdant strain took so well to drying.

Is the Verdant strain a true top-cropper?  I will probably stop using liquid yeast after one of the dry yeast manufacturers produce a true top-cropping British strain.  I primarily make British-style bitter and pale ale.  My preference is for a strain that I can top crop.

Online BrewBama

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2020, 12:04:39 AM »
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.

A volume of 18.9L is for all intents and purposes 19L when brewing.  We do not need that fine a level of control.
+1. I would go anywhere between 18.5-19.5g.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2020, 02:07:47 PM »
I mean, there's no reasonable way to get real scientific evidence proving that homebrew newbies are idiots, but I have known enough brewers who SWEAR BY single packs of lager yeast for warm-fermented (ambient temperature in California, not controlled 60F) lagers to produce pilsners and Mexican-style pale lagers that I would be surprised if your "average" brewer actually looks and notices the difference in pitching rates. Add the use of the metric system and I think you knock out another 80% who might have some concept of reading the packaging. That said, I greatly appreciate that they make it as clear as they do on the packaging for people who pay attention and actually do understand  the metric system like myself. That is a great first step from Lallemand. The next step would be getting their retailers educated so that they can help educate consumers, IMO.

If the wort is properly aerated, a single pack of 34/70 pitched at ambient temperature in California should do the trick. The reason why increased pitching rates are suggested for lagers is due to the fact that the replication period is extended significantly at lager temperatures.  It is about ensuring that the culture owns the fermentation, which can be offset by excellent cleaning, sanitization, careful wort handling, and aeration.  For example, I used to pitch 40ml of 1.020 autoclaved (pressure cooked) wort aseptically using a 4mm loop of yeast.  Trust me, that is a minascule amount of yeast.  That culture would be pitched into a 1L SNS starter a couple of days later.  The key here was that I started with absolutely sterile wort with the 40ml inoculation and my 1L starter wort was hot-packed into a 5L borosilicate media bottle.  Initial cell count is not as critical as initial level of sanitization and O2 saturation as long as the culture is within 1 to 2 replication periods of the desired pitching rate (that means 1/4 to 1/2th of the stated pitching rate).  For example, BRY-97 can take forever to start when underpitched, but it starts and produces a good beer if cleaning and sanitization were good.  I would be interesting to see if BRY-97 started faster when underpitched when pitched into well-aerated wort.  Dry yeast can make a brewer lazy in the aeration department because of its reduced dissolved O2 requirements

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2020, 02:24:02 PM »

If the wort is properly aerated, a single pack of 34/70 pitched at ambient temperature in California should do the trick. The reason why increased pitching rates are suggested for lagers is due to the fact that the replication period is extended significantly at lager temperatures.  It is about ensuring that the culture owns the fermentation, which can be offset by excellent cleaning, sanitization, careful wort handling, and aeration. 

I agree. When I was researching my article on calcium requirements for yeast, I had Chris White review my paper.  One of the questions that he couldn't answer was: 'Why is the pitching rate for lagers greater than for ales?' He did not know of a reason, but I ultimately came to the conclusion above. Lower replication rate at lower temperature demands more cells to ensure other organisms don't gain a significant foothold in the beer. 

While you may not want to ferment a lager at ale temperature due to the potential production of undesirable by-products, it's OK to ferment a lager at lager temperature with a low cell count as long as your sanitation is very good.
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