[roger]

Interesting that these would be more difficult to produce than others resulting in lower viability.

The fluid drying process is hard of on yeast cells, which is why there are fewer dry strains than liquid strains.

I agree ..but the “harder on one strain over the other” is what I found interesting.

Much thanks to Skyler for starting this thread. This is valuable information, and a good lesson to learn (or re-learn) especially since yeast make beer.

I've never used either of these strains. Likely if so, since they are both ale yeasts, I would have blindly pitched one sachet, a significant underpitch. Likely enough to affect the beer. Lesson learned, especially when using an unfamiliar strain, spend more time on the Lallemand site, consult with their yeast calculator, and don't be afraid to sent them a note with questions.

One might have assumed (me) that when using dry yeast from the same lab, the cell count in 11 grams = 11 grams regardless of strain. Wrong.

[denny]

Interesting that these would be more difficult to produce than others resulting in lower viability.

The fluid drying process is hard of on yeast cells, which is why there are fewer dry strains than liquid strains.

THIS^^^^ I guess I don't find it at all remarkable.

[Cliffs]

Here's what Lallemand told me:

"Thanks for your question. Indeed, the pitching rates for the LalBrew New England and LalBrew Koln strains are higher. These are more sensitive strains and difficult to produce, and as such the viability of the dried yeast is lower. To achieve optimal fermentation performance, we recommend a higher pitching rate for these strains."

So I think it really is just a low cell count per package. It seems like lots of brewers are likely to be confused and underpitch. I sent a follow-up email asking about making a starter.

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they should then give us more yeast per satchet IMO.

[Saccharomyces]

One might have assumed (me) that when using dry yeast from the same lab, the cell count in 11 grams = 11 grams regardless of strain. Wrong.

They packages do contain roughly the same cell count.  Where they differ is in the number of cells that are viable. As I have always said, the only cell that matters is viable cell count.  Dry brewer's yeast is manufactured using the technology as active dry baker's yeast.  The difference is that purity is not as critical with baker's yeast. Unlike liquid yeast where the propagation medium is produced, inoculated, and allowed to ferment out, dry yeast production is a continuous process with wort and O2 entering on one end and dry yeast coming out of the other end. Both yeast production in a bioreactor and yeast drying in a fluidized bed dryer operate in tandem on a continuous basis.  It is quite hi-tech.  The reality that some yeast strains survive the drying process better than others.  If one performs a Google search using the search terms "fluidized bed drying yeast viability," one will find many publications dedicated to the subject.

[BrewBama]

If one performs a Google search using the search terms "fluidized bed drying yeast viability," one will find many publications dedicated to the subject.

I found this article a bit less scientific and a little more lay-brewer: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/demystifying-active-dry-yeast/


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[Cliffs]

One might have assumed (me) that when using dry yeast from the same lab, the cell count in 11 grams = 11 grams regardless of strain. Wrong.

They packages do contain roughly the same cell count.  Where they differ is in the number of cells that are viable. As I have always said, the only cell that matters is viable cell count.  Dry brewer's yeast is manufactured using the technology as active dry baker's yeast.  The difference is that purity is not as critical with baker's yeast. Unlike liquid yeast where the propagation medium is produced, inoculated, and allow to ferment out, dry yeast production is a continuous process with wort and O2 entering on one end and dry yeast coming out of the other end. Both yeast production in a bioreactor and yeast drying in a fluidized bed drying operate in tandem on a continuous basis.  It is quite hi-tech.  The reality that some yeast strains survive the drying process better than others.  If one performs a Google search using the search terms "fluidized bed drying yeast viability," one will find many publications dedicated to the subject.

wouldnt simply selecting the cells that survive drying prevent these satchets of yeast that have a ton of non viable cells in them?

[pete b]

Here's what Lallemand told me:

"Thanks for your question. Indeed, the pitching rates for the LalBrew New England and LalBrew Koln strains are higher. These are more sensitive strains and difficult to produce, and as such the viability of the dried yeast is lower. To achieve optimal fermentation performance, we recommend a higher pitching rate for these strains."

So I think it really is just a low cell count per package. It seems like lots of brewers are likely to be confused and underpitch. I sent a follow-up email asking about making a starter.

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they should then give us more yeast per satchet IMO.

I agree with this^^^^^^
It’s such an expectation that one pack is for 5 gallons of wort that they should pack more per unit and charge accordingly. I bet a lot of their customers didn’t do the due diligence that the OP did and were disappointed.

[Saccharomyces]

wouldnt simply selecting the cells that survive drying prevent these satchets of yeast that have a ton of non viable cells in them?

Clearly, that is easier said than done; otherwise, they would be doing it.

[BrewBama]

...
It’s such an expectation that one pack is for 5 gallons of wort that they should pack more per unit and charge accordingly. ...

I’ve found they never recommend only 11g for the qty and SG of the wort I make on average. They normally recommend ~14-15g for my avg Ales and more for Lagers.

Most brewers just disregard the mfr recommendation.


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[pete b]

...
It’s such an expectation that one pack is for 5 gallons of wort that they should pack more per unit and charge accordingly. ...

I’ve found they never recommend only 11g for the qty and SG of the wort I make on average. They normally recommend ~14-15g for my avg Ales and more for Lagers.

Most brewers just disregard the mfr recommendation.


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Your right, but I still find it odd.

[skyler]

While I understand how offering these strains in the manner they do makes perfect sense for pro breweries who may be willing to spend twice as much to buy double the yeast in order to brew with Conan or get a dry Kolsch yeast and where the pricing with liquid yeast vs dry is greatly imbalanced, to the extent that twice as much New England is still much cheaper than a brewery pitch of Conan.

But when it takes more than two sachets to get the amount of viable cells in one pack of IOY-A04 Barbarian, and the retail pricing makes the single pack of Barbarian cheaper than three packs of New England, then there is something amiss. I still appreciate having these dry strains available, but I would be lying if I said I didn't feel slightly cheated by getting less than half as many cells for the same price as I get BRY-97 or US-05. And I would rather they simply sold 25g sachets if that is the appropriate amount of cells.

[roger]

I don't feel cheated, just naïve (or maybe mentally lazy) that I didn't understand this and made a bad assumption instead of fully understanding. As this thread shows, their website does have this information, its just that you have to know to look for it. The technical data sheets are on all the on-line shops show the amount of viable yeast cells. I did a quick check on one site and found the Lallemand Belle Saison is listed as having 5X more viable yeast cells than their Koln. It also has a link to their yeast calculator, if desired.

It just that thousands of homebrewers likely buy and use 1 sachet from their LHBS, without realizing they could be underpitching. After a bad experience, they may be turned off by Lallemand. IMHO, it would be to Lallemand's advantage to make the viability difference more obvious for the less experienced brewers. Many may choose to ignore the mfr's recommendation, but at least its a conscious, informed choice.

[narvin]

Cynically, they also might be thinking that brewers who don't know much about yeast also won't be able to tell if a beer had a suboptimal fermentation.  So, it opens up the market for them to sell it at a price that the casual brewer would buy.

[erockrph]

It just that thousands of homebrewers likely buy and use 1 sachet from their LHBS, without realizing they could be underpitching. After a bad experience, they may be turned off by Lallemand. IMHO, it would be to Lallemand's advantage to make the viability difference more obvious for the less experienced brewers. Many may choose to ignore the mfr's recommendation, but at least its a conscious, informed choice.

I agree with this. In general, I think the average homebrewer uses 1 packet for a typical 5-gallon batch of homebrew. I would think that it would be in Lallemand's best interest to make their packet size be equivalent to their recommended pitching rate for 5 gallons of a 1.050-1.060ish beer.

[BrewBama]

... more obvious for the less experienced brewers. Many may choose to ignore the mfr's recommendation, but at least its a conscious, informed choice.

It’s printed right on the package (see below) “Pitching Rate 1.0g/L”  Not sure how much more obvious they could be. 5 gal = 18.9 liters so.... 18.9 grams.

I brew 5.5 gal in the FV so I’ll end with 5 gal in the keg. Therefore, even without a pitching calculator, I know I’ll need to pitch ~21g of these strains.

No yeast mfr can predict every user situation. Liquid yeast mfr’s recommend starters, dry yeast mfr’s recommend pitch rate by weight.

 



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