[Cliffs]

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I love British malts and love Saison strains, a British Saison beer sounds like a winner to me.
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I like both of those too, but pils character is a must in a saison for me

[Joe_Beer]

We’ve used it on a few brews. It’s a beast. 80%+ attenuation (88% on one). It will chew through most of the sugars in a couple days. It generates very clear stonefruit flavours and works well with early and late dry hopping.

Glad to read this. I pitched on a Sunday and by Tuesday I was assuming leaks my fermenter bucket.  All activity had stopped. Gravity reading went from (Brix) 16.0 to 9.5 and hasn't dropped any more since. I was not expecting things to finish this quickly.  It does have a very pleasant, slighly fruity aroma unlike the US-05 or Lutra I've been using.

[Saccharomyces]

Glad to read this. I pitched on a Sunday and by Tuesday I was assuming leaks my fermenter bucket.  All activity had stopped. Gravity reading went from (Brix) 16.0 to 9.5 and hasn't dropped any more since. I was not expecting things to finish this quickly.  It does have a very pleasant, slighly fruity aroma unlike the US-05 or Lutra I've been using.

You beer is not finished, that is, unless you produced a highly unfermentable wort.  How much yeast did you pitch?  Did you aerate?

[Joe_Beer]

You beer is not finished, that is, unless you produced a highly unfermentable wort.  How much yeast did you pitch?  Did you aerate?

I think you might be right about the wort. I mashed in at 162F and the Foundry just doesn't loose that much heat to the grain bill (only my second AG batch). I pitched the whole packet of Verdant and aerated the way I normally do; just dropping it out of the spigot from about 18" into the bucket. Next batch I'm going to mash in at 140F and step it up to 152F.

[erockrph]

You beer is not finished, that is, unless you produced a highly unfermentable wort.  How much yeast did you pitch?  Did you aerate?

I think you might be right about the wort. I mashed in at 162F and the Foundry just doesn't loose that much heat to the grain bill (only my second AG batch). I pitched the whole packet of Verdant and aerated the way I normally do; just dropping it out of the spigot from about 18" into the bucket. Next batch I'm going to mash in at 140F and step it up to 152F.

Did you confirm the temperature with a second thermometer after mashing in? I am finding that the Anvil isn't terribly accurate. Mine runs low at mash temps and runs high at pitching temps

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[Saccharomyces]

I pitched the whole packet of Verdant and aerated the way I normally do; just dropping it out of the spigot from about 18" into the bucket.

That is not proper aeration.  One knows that one has achieved proper aeration when one has to slow cast-out wort from the kettle because there is too much foam in the fermentation vessel.  Please do me a favor and Google "aeration venturi wort".

[Joe_Beer]

Did you confirm the temperature with a second thermometer after mashing in? I am finding that the Anvil isn't terribly accurate. Mine runs low at mash temps and runs high at pitching temps

I did the first time I used it (couple months ago). It was within a few degrees.  Seemed reasonable given the Anvil temp probe is on the bottom of the kettle and my second thermometer was at the top where all the heat is coming off. I have noticed boiling starts about 208F though so maybe something is off there.

[Joe_Beer]

That is not proper aeration.  One knows that one has achieved proper aeration when one has to slow cast-out wort from the kettle because there is too much foam in the fermentation vessel.  Please do me a favor and Google "aeration venturi wort".

Dang.... thanks for the info. You mean like this (scroll down past the pump) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wort-aeration-how-to-build-a-free-pump.678469/? Seems easy enough to do and doesn't require a $15 stone and more tanks (of O2) laying around to fill.

There are so many ways people aerate that I didn't think it was entirely critical. I do end up with a good 6" of foam on top of the wort which seems to work well in the past for US-05 and Kveik but maybe Verdant is a little more inclined towards optimal aeration. I'm going to try your idea on the next batch.

[roger]

I'm under the impression that aeration is only needed for liquid yeast (or from starters) or for when repitching. When pitching straight from a dry yeast sachet, no aeration is needed. Is Verdant different in this?

[Saccharomyces]

I'm under the impression that aeration is only needed for liquid yeast (or from starters) or for when repitching. When pitching straight from a dry yeast sachet, no aeration is needed. Is Verdant different in this?

Whether or not one has to aerate with dry yeast appears to be strain and pitch rate dependent.  The newer cultures do not appear to take as well to aerobic propagation in a bioreactor followed by fluidized bed drying as the old standbys.  What we know is that the onset of fermentation can be sluggish and desired final gravity is not a given.  Why are we seeing these differences?  Is it because the newer strains are suffering high cell death? Or is it because the newer strains have higher O₂ requirements than the old standbys?  One thing I do know is that dry yeast is almost always underpitched and aeration is critical when underpitching.  If a pack of dry yeast contains 5 billion viable cells per gram, then an 11 gram package of dry yeast contains 55 billion cells.  That is one fourth the pitch rate of a 1L starter pitched at high krausen.  With 55 billion cells, it takes log(3800 / 55) / log(2) = 6.1 replication periods to reach maximum cell density on 19L (5 gallons) of wort.  That is almost two full replication periods longer than a 1L starter. As the dry mother cells will share their ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acid (UFA) reserves with every cell, directly or indirectly, during the growth and stationary phases, having to go two more replication periods to reach maximum cells density places a higher demand on the reserves that were available before the yeast was pitched.  Ergosterol and UFAs keep cell plasma membranes pliable, which allows for the intake of nutrients and expulsion of waste products. 

I willing to bet that aerating wort before pitching the troublesome dry yeast cultures reduces the lag between pitching and active fermentation coupled with improving the strength of the fermentation.  I have never been a big dry yeast user; therefore, this experiment is going to have to wait until my new brew house is up and running. One thing we know is that starting an 11 gram package of dry yeast in 1L of wort followed by pitching the culture into aerated wort results in dry culture behaving like a liquid culture, even the troublesome cultures. Why is that so? It could be that increasing the cell count by almost a factor of four is responsible for the difference, or it could be that the ergosterol and UFA reserves that the cells have coming out of the package are more than enough to rapidly reach maximum cell density in 1L of wort.  These cells then get to go through another lag phase where they shunt O₂ and carbon to their aerobic metabolic pathways to recharge their ergosterol and UFA reserves before restarting exponential growth when pitched into a batch or aerated wort.

[Saccharomyces]

Dang.... thanks for the info. You mean like this (scroll down past the pump) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wort-aeration-how-to-build-a-free-pump.678469/? Seems easy enough to do and doesn't require a $15 stone and more tanks (of O2) laying around to fill.

Here is the design I use:



It is not a traditional venturi design, but it works on the same principle. It is just a piece of racking cane with holes drilled downward at a 45-degree angle.  It is attached to the end of the hose used to cast-out wort from the kettle to a fermentation vessel.  I use a racking cane clip to hold it in place at the top of a glass or plastic carboy, but it can be clipped to the opening of any fermentation vessel. One just needs to make sure that holes are pointed downward in the direction of wort flow.  I usually have to slow the flow of my cast-out wort to prevent the foam head from becoming too large.

[Joe_Beer]

Here is the design I use:

Thanks for all the info. Definitely going to work one of these gizmos into the next batch somehow.

[Jamkin]

We’re guessing Belgian heritage for it, as it throws some solid bubblegum during ferment, but that doesn’t really stay around. I prefer it with ferments around 18C, but we’ve also pushed it as high as 24C with no apparent ill effect, although plan on keeping it lower in general.

Why do people assume that only Belgian yeasts have interesting flavours? There's a huge diversity in British brewing yeasts, from the subtle phenolics in most Yorkshire yeasts, to the pure banana of Hanlon's. Lost & Grounded have sold saisons that use WLP037 Yorkshire Square...

Verdant admit to having used "a generic London Ale III yeast from a bigger yeast bank" when they started but then used a single strain selected from that as their house strain and the general consensus is that the Lallemand product is a descendant of that 1318-like yeast.

They use a pretty traditional British fermentation profile - pitch at 18C, hold at 19C, then with 10 points to go let it free rise to 22C and hold until it passes a VDK test (it doess produce a bit of diacetyl but cleans it up), and then cool to 15C for dry hopping.

If fermenting in a conical, how would I dry hop post-ferm at 15 without introducing oxygen? First brew fermenting as we speak and unsure whether to dry hop just before ferm ends, or after as Verdant recommend in their Sharks recipe. Thanks

[roger]

If fermenting in a conical, how would I dry hop post-ferm at 15 without introducing oxygen? First brew fermenting as we speak and unsure whether to dry hop just before ferm ends, or after as Verdant recommend in their Sharks recipe. Thanks
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Jamkin, I used to dry hop by transferring to a purged keg post-fermentation. Honestly, IMHO the beer is no better than dry hopping in the fermentor, which is what I've done more recently. I do closed transfer, and my best to prevent O2 ingress, but don't stress about it, although there are those who do. I just do what works for me.

Since this is your first batch, welcome to the obsession. Enjoy experimenting to find what works for you, and don't get discouraged.

[Saccharomyces]

If fermenting in a conical, how would I dry hop post-ferm at 15 without introducing oxygen? First brew fermenting as we speak and unsure whether to dry hop just before ferm ends, or after as Verdant recommend in their Sharks recipe. Thanks

Remove the top, add the hops, place the top back on the fermentation vessel.

In my humble option, people are starting to go way overboard with respect to post-fermentation O₂ ingress.  Brewers fermented in open fermentation vessels for centuries without sweating O₂ ingress.  The Pugsley-installed Peter Austin and Partners systems still ferment in open fermentation vessels and use a hop percolator (a Peter Austin-designed hopback) to infuse post-boil hop aroma and flavor.  In smaller breweries, the hop percolator also serves the traditional role of holding back the kettle hops. The hop percolator allows these breweries to use pellets in the boil without a whirlpool because the whole cones hold the pellets back.