Author Topic: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea  (Read 261 times)

Offline pete b

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Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« on: October 13, 2020, 12:16:28 AM »
I plan on brewing an Imperial Stout soon. I think I can plan brewing it so that I could use the yeast cake from a Rye Porter that’s in the fermenter now with 1450. Here’s my question: would it be a good idea to do a SNS starter right in the fermenter? The plan would be that the night before brew day I rack the porter into a keg and immediately add a quart of 1.035 ish wort to the fermenter with the yeast cake and shake the crap out of it, let work overnight, then rack the cooled RIS wort onto it the next day.
Also, some related questions. If this is basically a good idea would it be even better to do a bit higher gravity wort for the starter to acclimate the yeast for a high gravity brew?
What about fermentation temp for a RIS? I am thinking mid sixties to start but warm up a bit after krausen to help finish?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 12:20:57 AM by pete b »
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2020, 12:52:55 AM »
I plan on brewing an Imperial Stout soon. I think I can plan brewing it so that I could use the yeast cake from a Rye Porter that’s in the fermenter now with 1450. Here’s my question: would it be a good idea to do a SNS starter right in the fermenter?

You do not need to make a starter with fresh slurry, only new liquid cultures.  You should pitch about 300ml of slurry per 5 gallons with an RIS.

Offline pete b

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2020, 01:07:52 AM »
I plan on brewing an Imperial Stout soon. I think I can plan brewing it so that I could use the yeast cake from a Rye Porter that’s in the fermenter now with 1450. Here’s my question: would it be a good idea to do a SNS starter right in the fermenter?

You do not need to make a starter with fresh slurry, only new liquid cultures.  You should pitch about 300ml of slurry per 5 gallons with an RIS.
Ah. I have followed sns threads since the start and use them but never picked up that detail, thanks.
Mark, why wouldn’t what I described give an advantage? In my mind the slurry was akin to a starter that was decanted and pitched as opposed to a sns starter pitched around high krausen. Stir plate business aside, I have always thought the sns advantage as pitching “awake” yeast vs “asleep” yeast. Am I thinking about this wrong, or is it just that the super fresh slurry is more than enough and I am making extra work?
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Offline Kevin

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2020, 02:24:21 AM »
Your first beer IS the starter. Put the SNS out of your mind and just put the RIS wort on top of the fresh slurry. I've been doing high gravity beers this way for many years.
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Offline pete b

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2020, 11:34:22 AM »
I have done this successfully in the past too, just wondering if getting the yeast actively reproducing first would give an advantage. To me this is like stirred starters that are cold crashed and decanted working fine for people for years then sns coming along and being easier and better.
Follow up question: what is considered fresh slurry? Obviously using it immediately, but if it’s stored under beer how long before it’s old enough that a starter is needed.
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Offline denny

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2020, 01:50:54 PM »
Your first beer IS the starter. Put the SNS out of your mind and just put the RIS wort on top of the fresh slurry. I've been doing high gravity beers this way for many years.

THIS^^^^^
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Offline denny

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2020, 01:51:25 PM »
I have done this successfully in the past too, just wondering if getting the yeast actively reproducing first would give an advantage. To me this is like stirred starters that are cold crashed and decanted working fine for people for years then sns coming along and being easier and better.
Follow up question: what is considered fresh slurry? Obviously using it immediately, but if it’s stored under beer how long before it’s old enough that a starter is needed.

For me, maybe a month
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2020, 02:13:12 PM »
I would agree on the one month use.  I rarely go beyond 2 weeks, but I have pushed it to a month without a starter using slurry, especially in the old days when I wasn't brewing as often.  Now I try to go from fresh racked to pitched on the same day, when possible.  I just harvested some Diamond Lager yeast from a 5 gallon batch of beer racked on Sunday and I will use it in a 10 gallon batch this weekend.  So less than a week...which is the way I prefer to re-use slurry.
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Offline pete b

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2020, 02:26:46 PM »
Your first beer IS the starter. Put the SNS out of your mind and just put the RIS wort on top of the fresh slurry. I've been doing high gravity beers this way for many years.

THIS^^^^^
I totally get that the first beer is the starter and that it works great. Its almost certainly what I will do. But out of curiosity and so I understand better I am really interested in why using the fresh slurry, which seems like a big starter that is decanted, would not be improved by sns. If the theory of sns is to pitch yeast at high krausen because the yeast is in a certain stage of life or growth that is better to start a fermentation why does it not pertain vs slurry from a beer as it does vs slurry from a regular starter?
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Offline denny

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2020, 02:34:02 PM »
Your first beer IS the starter. Put the SNS out of your mind and just put the RIS wort on top of the fresh slurry. I've been doing high gravity beers this way for many years.

THIS^^^^^
I totally get that the first beer is the starter and that it works great. Its almost certainly what I will do. But out of curiosity and so I understand better I am really interested in why using the fresh slurry, which seems like a big starter that is decanted, would not be improved by sns. If the theory of sns is to pitch yeast at high krausen because the yeast is in a certain stage of life or growth that is better to start a fermentation why does it not pertain vs slurry from a beer as it does vs slurry from a regular starter?

I don't know if it's a question of it not being beneficial as much as it not being necessary, given the volume of yeast you're pitching.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2020, 03:06:53 PM »
I would also think that the vitality of the yeast is pretty high with the re-use of the fresh cake.  So to the extent that "quiescence" occurs, it is easily overcome by the freshness?  This is probably one for Mark to give his input....
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2020, 11:14:18 PM »
Ah. I have followed sns threads since the start and use them but never picked up that detail, thanks.
Mark, why wouldn’t what I described give an advantage? In my mind the slurry was akin to a starter that was decanted and pitched as opposed to a sns starter pitched around high krausen. Stir plate business aside, I have always thought the sns advantage as pitching “awake” yeast vs “asleep” yeast. Am I thinking about this wrong, or is it just that the super fresh slurry is more than enough and I am making extra work?

Yes, the advantage of an SNS starter is pitching awake yeast instead of dormant yeast, but the awake part matters more when we are dealing with a yeast propagator volume of yeast.  Fresh slurry is a completely different animal.  For one, it has already been through at least one round in one's brew house; therefore, it has already started the sorting the wheat from the chaff with respect to one's brew house. Secondly, there is just so much more yeast biomass to pitch. For me, SNS is about getting a getting a new yeast culture prepared for one's brew house. SNS is not the be all, do all starter method.  It is a method that complies with what the British refer to as "cheap and cheerful."  It gets us on the page with new culture in a simple, cost effective way.  What we do with that culture on the second, third, fourth, ... Nth pitch determines how a culture adapts to our brew house. I am hoping that I can start a group repitch experiment.  I have enough data points to know that SNS works.  What I want to know is how the culture does beyond pitch number one.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 12:39:39 AM by Saccharomyces »

Offline pete b

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Re: Yeast Prep for RIS: is this a good idea
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2020, 11:37:23 PM »
Ok, I think everyone here is making the same point, which I totally buy, that making a starter when you have fresh slurry is simply not necessary. The fresh slurry is so effective that anything gained from making a starter from it isn’t worth the effort even if it means a bigger portion of “awake” yeast.
Furthermore, the fact that the yeast is becoming acclimated to our brewhouse is a huge advantage that a starter made from fresh slurry can’t improve on.
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