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Author Topic: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...  (Read 25965 times)

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2020, 11:10:02 am »
The polarization has zero to do with the techniques of Low Oxygen Brewing. As mentioned in this thread and elsewhere throughout this forum, many brewers here use many, if not all, the Low Oxygen Brewing techniques we’ve learned from very smart brewers in the community.

The polarization lies squarely with the personalities involved. It always has. I am OK in a world where everyone doesn’t agree with me. Some folks don’t seem to be able to handle that.

Some people like a good kerfuffle.  For the rest of us, we can analyze the LO information and see how it might impact our processes, equipment, etc. and also how it might impact our beers.  For those who prefer to dismiss the LO information outright, I think they owe it to themselves to try some of it on a few consecutive batches to see what impact it has on their beer, if any.  Don't like it?  Say that you tried it and went back to your old process.  No problem.  But if you criticize it and haven't tried it, the criticism may not be credible.  I'd like to think that the arguing is over. 
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A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline Sanatorium

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2020, 11:53:21 am »


Due to the polarization of Low Oxygen Brewing and this forum, ...

The polarization has zero to do with the techniques of Low Oxygen Brewing. As mentioned in this thread and elsewhere throughout this forum, many brewers here use many, if not all, the Low Oxygen Brewing techniques we’ve learned from very smart brewers in the community.

The polarization lies squarely with the personalities involved. It always has. I am OK in a world where everyone doesn’t agree with me. Some folks don’t seem to be able to handle that.

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To make full clear, I see but a handful of the same people continue to say and say the same things here.
So, to your point.
You have an issue not with the techniques, which are founded by current professional brewing science, backed up by a large mass of cites and sources on that site. Sources that often refute what is touted as current homebrew heresay.
Fair enough, I can see that.

But your issue lies, with the group of people that brought forth this information, who were greeted with a mass army of natives, who worshipped their own gods, and when presented this information, didn't budge in the least bit (to put it nicely). Sprinkle in the strawman's, and ad-hominems to boot? They were then ostracized when trying to present this information, that was meant to help and further the homebrewing knowledge to the community as a whole? When they refuse to roll over and die, they get banned and forever slandered here?

The posts are easy to search and readily available here. They don't paint this same picture as it told here by one side, and since there is only one side, maybe that's the point.

I am but a fly on the wall here with no real-estate in any camp, but I do know this, if those buzz words are brought up a fervor ensues. For the people who do the research it almost seems as if the defamation is purposeful, save for the masses it just looks like they are the devil.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 11:55:53 am by Sanatorium »

Offline denny

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2020, 12:46:16 pm »
I love fairy tales
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Online BrewBama

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Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2020, 12:49:38 pm »
Actually, I don’t even have a problem with the original authors of the method. I am retired military so I understood the direct tone. Doesn’t mean I agreed with it but I understood it. It was familiar to me.

In fact, rarely does the topic even come up at all until a very few individuals come along every now and then to bring it up.  The Low Oxygen techniques are just another way to do things here on equal par with every other brewing method. The only folks that seem to get triggered are the ones who come along to stoke the flames. Everyone else is good with it on a routine basis just like all other brewing methods.

...but since you are concerned: My issue is with the ‘my way or the highway’ attitude of a few of the current constituents. Plenty of great brewers over there, nice folks, willing to help. ...but there’s a fraction of folks where there’s no room for any other view point but theirs. Ask a question and “go find it yourself” “we don’t spoon feed people” is their mantra. Those are the very few condescending people that I have an issue with. Oh well. I just don’t associate. I can live happily without it.

Allow folks to do their own thing without jabbing them in the eye, lower the temperature, agree to disagree and all is well with me. To each his own. ...but that’s just me. I can’t speak for anyone else.

Cheers!


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« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 01:40:34 pm by BrewBama »

Offline Sanatorium

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2020, 03:23:34 pm »
I love fairy tales
I would love to get the correct information if I am wrong. I don't like to proliferate untruthful information.

Which part(s) are incorrect in my posts regarding this?

Am I to assume from your hyperbole, and lack of full sentence structure, that I should know, assume, or read into this context?

Offline Sanatorium

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2020, 03:27:00 pm »
Actually, I don’t even have a problem with the original authors of the method. I am retired military so I understood the direct tone. Doesn’t mean I agreed with it but I understood it. It was familiar to me.

In fact, rarely does the topic even come up at all until a very few individuals come along every now and then to bring it up.  The Low Oxygen techniques are just another way to do things here on equal par with every other brewing method. The only folks that seem to get triggered are the ones who come along to stoke the flames. Everyone else is good with it on a routine basis just like all other brewing methods.

...but since you are concerned: My issue is with the ‘my way or the highway’ attitude of a few of the current constituents. Plenty of great brewers over there, nice folks, willing to help. ...but there’s a fraction of folks where there’s no room for any other view point but theirs. Ask a question and “go find it yourself” “we don’t spoon feed people” is their mantra. Those are the very few condescending people that I have an issue with. Oh well. I just don’t associate. I can live happily without it.

Allow folks to do their own thing without jabbing them in the eye, lower the temperature, agree to disagree and all is well with me. To each his own. ...but that’s just me. I can’t speak for anyone else.

Cheers!


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Fantastic point of view, thanks for the response.

Allow folks to do their own thing without jabbing them in the eye, lower the temperature, agree to disagree and all is well with me. To each his own. ...but that’s just me. I can’t speak for anyone else.


Maybe I am seeing this incorrectly, and if I am PLEASE correct me. However, any of the LOB buzz words always accompany post(s) from you not following any kind of this mantra. Just something to consider from an on-looker.

Cheers!

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2020, 03:46:14 pm »
Maybe I am seeing this incorrectly, and if I am PLEASE correct me. However, any of the LOB buzz words always accompany post(s) from you not following any kind of this mantra. Just something to consider from an on-looker.

Cheers!
I feel like everyone is pulling in the same direction except for you.  Do you have an agenda with this topic?  The dust begins to settle but then you kick it back up again. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline Sanatorium

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2020, 04:23:56 pm »
Maybe I am seeing this incorrectly, and if I am PLEASE correct me. However, any of the LOB buzz words always accompany post(s) from you not following any kind of this mantra. Just something to consider from an on-looker.

Cheers!
I feel like everyone is pulling in the same direction except for you.  Do you have an agenda with this topic?  The dust begins to settle but then you kick it back up again.

I'm sorry, it was brought up because you said you didn't know why trub was limited. Please don't turn and pile this on me, for citing your source and helping you (and the rest of the folks following the thread with the information). It feels all too familiar, to what my research has shown thus far.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2020, 04:30:12 pm »
Maybe I am seeing this incorrectly, and if I am PLEASE correct me. However, any of the LOB buzz words always accompany post(s) from you not following any kind of this mantra. Just something to consider from an on-looker.

Cheers!
I feel like everyone is pulling in the same direction except for you.  Do you have an agenda with this topic?  The dust begins to settle but then you kick it back up again.

I'm sorry, it was brought up because you said you didn't know why trub was limited. Please don't turn and pile this on me, for citing your source and helping you (and the rest of the folks following the thread with the information). It feels all too familiar, to what my research has shown thus far.
Correct... I did not know the specific reason for keeping trub from the fermenter and I mentioned that honestly.  I also thanked you for posting that link.  I have also gone pretty far out of the way to mention the LO information in the best possible way and also mention that I use some of it and I enjoy a lot of it as well and also that I have been enjoying the beers I have been making.  But the LO vs. non-LO issue does not have to be brought up over and over.  No one here wants to see that.  We can move on.
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Online BrewBama

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Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2020, 08:01:59 pm »
I love fairy tales
Historical negationism, also called denialism, is a distortion of the historical record.

Notable examples of negationism include Holocaust denial, Armenian Genocide denial, Lost Cause of the Confederacy, Myth of the clean Wehrmacht, Japanese war crime denial and the denial of Soviet crimes.

I’m certainly not suggesting this fairly tale, as you describe it, is comparable to those abominations, but it is to a lesser degree a form of negationism. 

I feel like everyone is pulling in the same direction except for you.  Do you have an agenda with this topic?  The dust begins to settle but then you kick it back up again.

For some reason a new member since Jul with 17 posts has a hyper-interest in an idealized version of past events with pseudohistorical ‘facts’ as well as perceived mistreatment and heroic promotion of the adherents of a specific method of brewing beer.

Weird. More than meets the eye indeed.


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« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 08:32:20 pm by BrewBama »

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2020, 08:42:40 pm »
For some reason a new member since Jul with 17 posts has a hyper-interest in an idealized version of past events with pseudohistorical ‘facts’ as well as perceived mistreatment and heroic promotion of the adherents of a specific method of brewing beer.

Weird. More than meets the eye indeed.
Seems eerily familiar, doesn't it?  Almost like I've been here before. 
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A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline pete b

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2020, 05:44:42 am »
Up until about two days ago I had thought this was past. LO gets brought up here all the time now in a matter of fact way to solve this problem or that and questions about it are asked and answered all the time with no global arguments against it. It is mainstream and accepted here. There is lots of good info on closed transfers and other techniques here.
I think of the difference between how threads about LO and SNS starters have differed here. Both topics were introduced by a very smart person who had already done the work and became truly expert in a specific area. They both were very direct and sure of themselves and between that and the fact the methods they were advocating were challenging to popular belief they both encountered resistance. Mark continued to provide information and argued forcefully and sometimes undiplomatically for sns and against stir plates, probably hurting some feelings. But he didn’t call people names or throw tantrums and eventually people were convinced to try it and mostly loved it and Mark has continued to be a valued contributor whose advise is sought. He also asks questions about others experience. The LO person and a couple others on the other hand did insult and throw tantrums and are not here even though LO is practiced and accepted as good practice here. Some here think LO is a lot of extra effort and expense and are already happy with their beer but others try it and it’s no big deal until someone comes out of the woodwork and throws gasoline on what is really not a fire anymore, just embers.
BTW “I love fairy tales” has a subject, noun, and verb and therefore is a soundly constructed sentence.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 05:47:04 am by pete b »
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline fredthecat

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2020, 08:04:48 pm »
lol, i know you guys had the whole LO arguments in the past, but: IMHO


isn't it as simple as

-yes, a highly mechanized and complex system that limits oxygen exposure greatly, and even expels it from the beer is good for elements of freshness and flavour in beers where this is important is good

-but, not everyone is willing to pay for and do this.


?

it should really be that, and no more.


Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2020, 09:10:47 pm »
lol, i know you guys had the whole LO arguments in the past, but: IMHO


isn't it as simple as

-yes, a highly mechanized and complex system that limits oxygen exposure greatly, and even expels it from the beer is good for elements of freshness and flavour in beers where this is important is good

-but, not everyone is willing to pay for and do this.


?

it should really be that, and no more.
Agreed.  It could even be simpler:

Make beer.  If you like it, excellent.  If not, find ways to make it better. 

I was able to adopt some LO steps and my system is not complex or mechanized.  There are some weak points in my process because of my equipment and the LO guys saw that this could happen because everyone's system is different.  I think that's where the "trifecta mix" comes in.  It's your insurance policy to take out O2 as best as possible when it's present.  If a hardcore LO brewer saw my process they would point to spots where improvement could be made, I'm sure.  But... I'm very happy with the beers I'm producing and I will keep these pieces in place because I like them and the beer has been very good IMO.  Cheers.
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline Bilsch

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Re: Attempting to get less trub in the fermenter...
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2020, 11:09:25 pm »
Looks to me like another smart brewer is being driven away from this forum. Soon there will be none left.