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Author Topic: stepping up a beer  (Read 1028 times)

Offline fredthecat

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stepping up a beer
« on: November 11, 2020, 07:31:24 pm »
i tried searching for any posts or threads about this but didn't find any.

is it advisable to say, take a pack of liquid yeast with a cell count of say 80 to 100 million, add it directly to 4 gallons of chilled ~1.03 gravity wort, wait until 24 hours after a good krausen then add 1 gallon of concentrated and chilled wort that makes the total gravity say ~1.08 or higher.

why? i dont want to make a huge yeast starter for a very strong beer, this seems potentially easier as well as my time is limited. high OG 2nd addition will be made from LME, so add LME, quick 15 min boil, chill and add.

issues: 1. accurate hopping/bitterness issues (i would plan on doing all hop additions to the initial 4 gallons) - anyone have experience with this?
           2. yeast cell count/viability/? issues? my hope is

pros: 1. it could be a time/effort efficient way to get a very viable, adequately sized yeast going for a very high gravity beer (sorry, but this has always been an issue of mine, that hinders me from making big beers)
2. reduces amount of yeast needed to brew larger quantities of beer, more brews or bigger ones.



Any thoughts are welcome

Offline Bob357

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2020, 10:42:58 pm »
Many breweries do something similar. but without the concentrated wort addition. They combine 2 batches of the same wort using that procedure. I'd be hesitant to add a highly concentrated wort into a fermentation in progress for fear that the yeast might react in a negative way. Why not just double batch like breweries do and not take the chance of screwing up a brew?
Maybe a small batch to see how it works.
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Offline pete b

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2020, 08:02:34 am »
I always am hesitant to "answer" an OP with a suggestion to do something other than what was asked about but I can't help but mention that making a batch of smaller beer first then adding the wort to the yeast cake works great. I just did a 1.060 Rye Porter followed by a 1.085 RIS.
I have the same concern as Bob about adding the high gravity wort: but no experience, so don't let that stop you.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2020, 09:09:05 am »
I get where you're going with this. I've had a similar idea in the past but always ended up going the route Pete mentioned (brewing a batch of smaller beer as a big starter). My gut says your plan should work. I would definitely hit it with a shot of oxygen when you add the concentrated wort. Give it a try and let us know how it works.

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Offline pete b

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2020, 09:49:42 am »
I agree with Eric that this should technically work and honestly, for selfish and lazy reasons, would like you to try it and report back.
What I do wonder about though is the effect of adding that high gravity wort made from lme. I think the attenuation might be not enough and the beer ends up being too sweet. Maybe a portion is sugar?
Here's a crazy idea: set aside the first runnings and add back later? I know, your not looking for more work and you would have to find a way to keep them from getting infected.
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Offline denny

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2020, 09:50:54 am »
I've done it in commercial breweries and don't see why it wouldn't work at the homebrew level.
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2020, 11:07:44 am »
i wont quote reply all of you, but appreciate the ideas. yeah i will have to think carefully about 02.

i am going to do this, as ive already got the yeast sitting around. will try to ahem be as scientific and clear as possible in this exbeeriment

so: black beer WLP500

first, 16 litres of OG 1.03 with all roasted/crystal malts and hopped as if it were the entire beer.

wait 24 hours after a full krausen is formed

after addition of 750g sugar and 3kg LME to reach OG 1.078 (15 min boiled then chilled) no hops

FG should be around 1.009 i hope


im sure it will do something, ill have to wait about 6 weeks to let you know if it turned out.

Offline Wilbur

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2020, 11:22:51 am »
Not sure what style this is for, but I imagine you'd want to hop both additions if doing this with a hoppy style due to solubility limits of certain hop compounds.

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Offline denny

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2020, 11:26:30 am »
i wont quote reply all of you, but appreciate the ideas. yeah i will have to think carefully about 02.

i am going to do this, as ive already got the yeast sitting around. will try to ahem be as scientific and clear as possible in this exbeeriment

so: black beer WLP500

first, 16 litres of OG 1.03 with all roasted/crystal malts and hopped as if it were the entire beer.

wait 24 hours after a full krausen is formed

after addition of 750g sugar and 3kg LME to reach OG 1.078 (15 min boiled then chilled) no hops

FG should be around 1.009 i hope


im sure it will do something, ill have to wait about 6 weeks to let you know if it turned out.

You won't need O2 adding to a slurry of actively fermenting yeast
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline fredthecat

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2020, 03:29:50 pm »
Not sure what style this is for, but I imagine you'd want to hop both additions if doing this with a hoppy style due to solubility limits of certain hop compounds.

noted, and since i plan on it being hoppy, will throw in a bit in the 2nd part.


You won't need O2 adding to a slurry of actively fermenting yeast

thanks, will follow.


Offline fredthecat

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2020, 04:05:56 pm »
uh so yeah, 4 litres of water hypersaturated with LME and sugar turns into at least 8 litres in volume of liquid, that when boiling , foams over many times higher than a typical boilover and cleaning up liquid candy burning on your stove top is not fun. just something to consider.

it also seems to be taking a lot longer to cool down. Something I didn't consider before starting this and definitely two big negatives already.

Offline fredthecat

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Re: stepping up a beer
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2020, 08:17:05 pm »
now that i believe in oxygenating a wort more heavily especially if the OG is higher I wouldn't really endorse this thread.

FG was an unacceptable 1.040, stable for a week upon checking twice and despite attempts to raise temp, etc.

separated yeast, have added it to a starter style 2 litre solution again, will re-add to beer in 2 and a half days to try to reduce FG.

with knowledge on oxygenation, i wouldnt do this idea again.