Author Topic: Aerating wort  (Read 1342 times)

Offline beerphilmcd

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Enzymatic activity excites me!
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2020, 02:50:11 AM »
That's the beauty of home-brewing

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
Precisely!
I love the science, art, and experience of this great hobby! I’m convinced as a non-O2 user but vociferous stirrer and pourer whom always has huge foam prior to the initial pitch that some of my higher abv beers have suffered from a lack of oxygen. This conclusion based on repeated experience is with the caveat that it is with Nottingham dry yeast that I’ve mostly experienced this phenomenon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Perhaps wisdom for me is understanding how truely small I am, and that there is no smug self centered moment of clarity when there is so much more to learn" Anthony Bourdain

Offline fredthecat

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2020, 02:53:57 AM »
i think we're getting close to a clear answer here on "to what level do you need to oxygenate your wort?"

people are saying "well i don't and mine is fine" - that is how i thought too -when i used dry yeast of limited variety and did not make too many high gravity beers.

there seems to be a belief that dry yeast does not need any or as much oxygenation as liquid yeast?

there are definitely yeasts that require more oxygen than others

official (as in people who deal with propagating yeast on a commercial/professional level) people stress the importance of oxygen in homebrewing. they are stating that ales (too broad, but thats all i could find so far) require 8-12ppm oxygen and lagers require 10-15ppm oxygen.

i do not have a problem reaching an appropriate FG and a good tasting beer with OGs 1.055 and under using my typical method of shaking the carboy for a minute right before adding yeast (dry or liquid).

i have had problems reaching an appropriate FG when making beers with OGs higher than 1.065 with some yeasts and the taste results have not been satisfactory to me.

people who reject pure oxygenation outright, consider the above.


i'm trying to find any page that shows classes or levels of oxygenation recommended for yeasts. west yorkshire is an example of a yeast that apparently requires much more oxygen than other strains. anyone?

another thing i do wonder is - how did brewers in the past achieve oxygenation? there were plenty of strong brews being made, thanks to the barclay perkins site i am aware that they were hitting much lower attenuation than anyone would want in the 21st century, but that wasnt always the case.

how?

« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 02:55:41 AM by fredthecat »

Offline fredthecat

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2020, 02:57:43 AM »
That's the beauty of home-brewing

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
Precisely!
I love the science, art, and experience of this great hobby! I’m convinced as a non-O2 user but vociferous stirrer and pourer whom always has huge foam prior to the initial pitch that some of my higher abv beers have suffered from a lack of oxygen. This conclusion based on repeated experience is with the caveat that it is with Nottingham dry yeast that I’ve mostly experienced this phenomenon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

exactly. i think this is the point we're getting too. definitely higher OGs are an issue and would be great to have a resource even indicating suggestions that X yeast may require more oxygenation.



just found on whitelabs - a review:

WLP 037"
By: Barney | Date: Jul 6, 2015 | Beer(s) Brewed: Yorkshire Pale Ale and Yorkshire Bitter

This yeast has very high oxygen requirements, if you dont get it right you will have all kinds of problems.

strange esters
long lag time
slow fermentation
poor clarity
poor sedimentation


If you do get it right you will have a cracking 10 day cycle yeast which is an awesome top cropper and can be reused, worry free, for up to 50 generations.

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2020, 03:13:53 AM »
I’ve seen old photos of English breweries recirculating wort thru fishtails to keep the yeast aerated during fermentation.

I recall a Dr Bamforth interview where he said he was given a lecture in England. He sad something like he prefers not go into double digits repitching before a replacement pitch is grown from a master colony. A gentleman in the back stood and said they’re on something like their 4000th+ repitch at last count!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline beerphilmcd

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Enzymatic activity excites me!
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2020, 03:26:25 AM »
i think we're getting close to a clear answer here on "to what level do you need to oxygenate your wort?"

people are saying "well i don't and mine is fine" - that is how i thought too -when i used dry yeast of limited variety and did not make too many high gravity beers.

there seems to be a belief that dry yeast does not need any or as much oxygenation as liquid yeast?

there are definitely yeasts that require more oxygen than others

official (as in people who deal with propagating yeast on a commercial/professional level) people stress the importance of oxygen in homebrewing. they are stating that ales (too broad, but thats all i could find so far) require 8-12ppm oxygen and lagers require 10-15ppm oxygen.

i do not have a problem reaching an appropriate FG and a good tasting beer with OGs 1.055 and under using my typical method of shaking the carboy for a minute right before adding yeast (dry or liquid).

i have had problems reaching an appropriate FG when making beers with OGs higher than 1.065 with some yeasts and the taste results have not been satisfactory to me.

people who reject pure oxygenation outright, consider the above.


i'm trying to find any page that shows classes or levels of oxygenation recommended for yeasts. west yorkshire is an example of a yeast that apparently requires much more oxygen than other strains. anyone?

another thing i do wonder is - how did brewers in the past achieve oxygenation? there were plenty of strong brews being made, thanks to the barclay perkins site i am aware that they were hitting much lower attenuation than anyone would want in the 21st century, but that wasnt always the case.

how?

This is my understanding also!

So few of us homebrewers are dedicated users of a single yeast allowing us to fully explore its capabilities. Often we pull back after a failure because there are easier options available, which is fine.

I’ve made at least 60 batches with Nottingham, love the yeast’s versatility and fermentation properties. I’ve made pseudo lagers with heavy pitching at 57F, coaxed subtle fruity esters with more moderate pitching and higher pitching rates, etc. Yet, I’ve barely scratched the surface of what it can do!

Different yeasts, different processes, different wort qualities, etc have different requirements. I’m convinced wlp530 would chew through a rusty Volkswagen while wlp820 is the most slow cantankerous yeast ever dispensed with no amount of nutrients or oxygen being able to get it to perform in my process.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Perhaps wisdom for me is understanding how truely small I am, and that there is no smug self centered moment of clarity when there is so much more to learn" Anthony Bourdain

Offline beerphilmcd

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Enzymatic activity excites me!
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2020, 03:38:31 AM »
I’ve seen old photos of English breweries recirculating wort thru fishtails to keep the yeast aerated during fermentation.

I recall a Dr Bamforth interview where he said he was given a lecture in England. He sad something like he prefers not go into double digits repitching before a replacement pitch is grown from a master colony. A gentleman in the back stood and said they’re on something like their 4000th+ repitch at last count!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yep, my feeble understanding of yeasts is that they’re possibly the evolutionists best example of adaptive evolution given their mutation in such short time frames. Yet we absolutely know certain British breweries reuse their yeasts 100+ times while most breweries fear pushing anyeast beyond 6 or 15 or 30 pitches. Yet both approaches produce similarly consistent beer!

I love this presentation, one of my favorites along with many of Dr Bamforths presentations. Here John Kimmich talks about the history of Conan, how they treat it, that they stop repitching at X point, etc. Very pertinent to our discussion.

https://youtu.be/LdfySDN2mF0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Perhaps wisdom for me is understanding how truely small I am, and that there is no smug self centered moment of clarity when there is so much more to learn" Anthony Bourdain

Offline BeerfanOz

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2020, 08:30:59 AM »
When you top crop healthy ale strains it is all fresh healthy yeast, unlike using slurry from the bottom of the fermenter. I believe this is why uk top cropping strains can be repitched so often.

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3866
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2020, 12:05:30 PM »
In terms of historical aerating of wort, one would think that open fermenting would be the most prevalent means, but also chilling by cascading wort over washboard-like plates has been used, but I can’t recall the specifics on the latter...I just recall seeing it in a photograph.  As stated above, the Burton Union system allowed for aeration in the movement of the fermenting wort. I’m not sure any of those approaches exceed the atmospheric +/- 8ppm, though.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3557
  • Barre, Ma
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2020, 01:22:09 PM »

Doesn't matter to me. I do it anyway. I don't know and probably don't care the why's or why nots to aerating dry yeast. My approach is if its good for liquid it can't be harmful for dry.

I think I aerate by transferring into the fermenter. I don’t break out the red bottle or anything but I do get some foam on top of the wort when the xfer is complete.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Break out the red bottle?
My O2 bottle is red. ...but I haven’t used it in yrs because I use dry yeast.
Ah. I thought maybe “breaking out the Ed bottle “ was a figure of speech I was unfamiliar with...
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline TXFlyGuy

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2020, 02:11:08 PM »
"Well, we don't and the beer is fine"...

True. And our experience shows empirical data that there is little or no difference in our beers fermented with oxygenated wort versus wort that is simply racked into the fermenter from the boil kettle and then allowed to ferment "as is".

We use mostly liquid yeast, plus harvested yeast.

Again, this is technique only, not a hard and fast procedure that you must follow.

Online RC

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2020, 04:09:49 PM »
there seems to be a belief that dry yeast does not need any or as much oxygenation as liquid yeast?

It is not belief. It is well-established science that dry yeast does not require aeration.

Offline fredthecat

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2020, 04:37:45 PM »

This is my understanding also!

So few of us homebrewers are dedicated users of a single yeast allowing us to fully explore its capabilities. Often we pull back after a failure because there are easier options available, which is fine.

I’ve made at least 60 batches with Nottingham, love the yeast’s versatility and fermentation properties. I’ve made pseudo lagers with heavy pitching at 57F, coaxed subtle fruity esters with more moderate pitching and higher pitching rates, etc. Yet, I’ve barely scratched the surface of what it can do!

Different yeasts, different processes, different wort qualities, etc have different requirements. I’m convinced wlp530 would chew through a rusty Volkswagen while wlp820 is the most slow cantankerous yeast ever dispensed with no amount of nutrients or oxygen being able to get it to perform in my process.


i'd ask for advice on nottingham, but i had a bad experience with it once, and never went back. it isnt carried at my LHBS anymore either.

if you had to choose one yeast to brew with which one would it be and why? (open to anyone )




Online Oiscout

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 253
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2020, 04:50:57 PM »
WLP300 I know it's style specific but I love the flavor and it ferments like a well oiled machine. I have about 5 hefeweizens under my belt and this yeast has not dissapointed

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 23368
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2020, 05:10:24 PM »
there seems to be a belief that dry yeast does not need any or as much oxygenation as liquid yeast?

It is not belief. It is well-established science that dry yeast does not require aeration.

I agree.  Some people would rather believe their myths, huh?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 23368
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Aerating wort
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2020, 05:11:25 PM »

This is my understanding also!

So few of us homebrewers are dedicated users of a single yeast allowing us to fully explore its capabilities. Often we pull back after a failure because there are easier options available, which is fine.

I’ve made at least 60 batches with Nottingham, love the yeast’s versatility and fermentation properties. I’ve made pseudo lagers with heavy pitching at 57F, coaxed subtle fruity esters with more moderate pitching and higher pitching rates, etc. Yet, I’ve barely scratched the surface of what it can do!

Different yeasts, different processes, different wort qualities, etc have different requirements. I’m convinced wlp530 would chew through a rusty Volkswagen while wlp820 is the most slow cantankerous yeast ever dispensed with no amount of nutrients or oxygen being able to get it to perform in my process.


i'd ask for advice on nottingham, but i had a bad experience with it once, and never went back. it isnt carried at my LHBS anymore either.

if you had to choose one yeast to brew with which one would it be and why? (open to anyone )

I think everyone knows mine....😉
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell