[SteveWGB]

Good evening, I hope you all are enjoying the holiday weekend!

I am planning on brewing my first pilsner, but am wondering about water profile as well as decoction mashing.

Right now, the plan is to use 10 lbs of floor-malted pilsner, Czech Saaz, not sure about which yeast to use yet (recommendations welcome), and then distilled water treated with 4.5 grams of Calcium Chloride and 2 ml of Lactic Acid. Anyone see anything wrong with this plan, or have any different suggestions?

Also, I would like to try a decoction mash in a future pilsner. If I use the plan above, could I do a decoction and use the Bru'n Water Pilsen water profile and still have enough calcium to achieve a healthy mash for fermentation?

Thanks in advance to any help you are willing to give!

[ynotbrusum]

Sounds like you are right on track.  The water adjustment can be calculated with Brunwater as you have done very ably.  Consider mashing at around 148 and pulling the decoction at 45 minutes and mashing for 75-90 total time.  The grain should provide sufficient calcium.  Consider Budejovice yeast (WLP 802), although any lager yeast will do, even the dry yeasts, such as Mangrove Jacks Bohemian lager.  Fermentation in the low to mid 50’s and no d-rest is typically necessary.

[dmtaylor]

Sounds like good plans.  For yeast, the best I have used is Wyeast 2206.  Please note: WLP820 is NOT equivalent.  WLP802 on the other hand is probably a good choice, as would be Wyeast 2000 or 2278.  Also consider the Mexican yeast WLP940.  And if you want to try a dried yeast, I would start with Diamond or W-34/70.  However I think the liquid yeasts are the better way to go for this style.

[Saccharomyces]

Why are you planning to use 2ml of lactic acid?  If the lactic acid addition is to adjust pH, it is more than likely not necessary.  Distilled water only remains at pH 7.0 until it is exposed to air.  After which, the pH starts to drop due to the creation of carbonic acid (H₂O + CO₂ = H₂CO₃). 

[dmtaylor]

Ray Daniels says distilled water with no adjuncts mashes at a pH of about 5.8.  That's kind of high.  The calcium will bring it down a tad to maybe 5.65-5.7, but even so, a small lactic addition is extremely common with Bo pils.  That, or acidulated malt.

[SteveWGB]

I use Poland Spring distilled water, and their spec sheet says the water pH is 5. That's the number I enter into the Bru'n Water water input sheet. Without the lactic acid, the pH would be 5.57. The lactic acid addition brings to pH down to 5.3.

I've asked Santa for a pH meter, and I have been good all year...sort of...so before I brew I could measure the distilled water and have the most accurate measurement for the water input sheet and see what that would do to the need for lactic acid.

[SteveWGB]

Consider mashing at around 148 and pulling the decoction at 45 minutes and mashing for 75-90 total time.  The grain should provide sufficient calcium.

I was under the impression that I would need to begin the mash at approximately 120F for a few minutes, then pull the decoction to get to another rest temperature. Are you suggesting I start at 148 and then pull? What temp am I aiming for once I add the decoction back to the mash, or is this to get to mash out temperature?
Thanks!

[Saccharomyces]

I used to brew amazing pale lagers and hope to do so again shortly with just filtered low dissolved solids water, no brewing salts added. In fact, pale lagers were the only style I could brew without adjusting my water.  I truly respect Martin's work, so maybe adding 2ml of lactic acid is needed.  I never add acid when working with soft water.

[jeffy]

My experience tells me that the lactic acid is needed if using distilled water and Pilsner malt.
There are many types of decoctions.  You can use whatever starting temp you want, but I would normally start at 148 and the do a decoction to 168 or so.

[denny]

Consider mashing at around 148 and pulling the decoction at 45 minutes and mashing for 75-90 total time.  The grain should provide sufficient calcium.

I was under the impression that I would need to begin the mash at approximately 120F for a few minutes, then pull the decoction to get to another rest temperature. Are you suggesting I start at 148 and then pull? What temp am I aiming for once I add the decoction back to the mash, or is this to get to mash out temperature?
Thanks!

A rest at that low temp with modern malts can be problematic.

[mabrungard]

Why are you planning to use 2ml of lactic acid?  If the lactic acid addition is to adjust pH, it is more than likely not necessary.  Distilled water only remains at pH 7.0 until it is exposed to air.  After which, the pH starts to drop due to the creation of carbonic acid (H₂O + CO₂ = H₂CO₃).

Mark,

That's not correct.  The degree of acidification afforded by CO2 dissolution is still far too little to provide enough acidification for mashing and a good outcome.  ALL mashes require acid and more is required, even for a pils grist in low alkalinity water.  The lactic acid addition is a welcome and desirable component in Pils brewing. 

Back the OP question, I find that employing a lightly-mineralized water profile has a good outcome in light lagers.  Using RO, distilled, or similar water is a must.  I find that adding all the calcium salts calculated for the entire batch to only the mashing water is a very good technique for providing enough calcium to precipitate oxalate in the mash while keeping the overall mineralization low.  A good Pils profile does include some sulfate in order to produce an adequately drying beer finish.  Using only chloride in the profile is not ideal.  In any case, the final concentrations of chloride and sulfate will be fairly low, say in the 20 to 30 ppm range. 

Regarding pH, targeting a mashing pH of about 5.4 is helpful for DMS reduction in the final beer.  Acidifying the wort to under 5.2 (maybe 5.1) at the end of the boil is also helpful for assuring that the beer pH ends up in a good range. 

[SteveWGB]

A good Pils profile does include some sulfate in order to produce an adequately drying beer finish.  Using only chloride in the profile is not ideal.  In any case, the final concentrations of chloride and sulfate will be fairly low, say in the 20 to 30 ppm range. 

Regarding pH, targeting a mashing pH of about 5.4 is helpful for DMS reduction in the final beer.  Acidifying the wort to under 5.2 (maybe 5.1) at the end of the boil is also helpful for assuring that the beer pH ends up in a good range.

Thank you for responding, and if you don't mind, I would like to get some clarification. Are you suggesting I alter the water to have somewhere between 40-50 ppm calcium, and between 20-30 ppm of both chloride and sulfate while aiming for a mash pH of 5.4?

[SteveWGB]

After toying around Bru'n Water, here is what I have:
1.6 grams of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride each, with .5 gram of pickling lime, along with 2.5 ml of lactic acid gives me 41ppm calcium, 25 ppm sulfate, 29 ppm chloride, -49ppm bicarbonate, and a pH of 5.4. Thoughts?

[dmtaylor]

After toying around Bru'n Water, here is what I have:
1.6 grams of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride each, with .5 gram of pickling lime, along with 2.5 ml of lactic acid gives me 41ppm calcium, 25 ppm sulfate, 29 ppm chloride, -49ppm bicarbonate, and a pH of 5.4. Thoughts?

Not bad, not bad at all.  Further discussion is just for "fun" at this point:

It seems odd to have both lactic and pickling lime in the same water regimen.  The lactic reduces pH, while the pickling lime does the opposite, increasing alkalinity or neutralizing part of the acid, only to add a few ppm calcium.  If concerned about calcium level, I'd rather add calcium chloride.  Personal preference.  Just seems weird to use both pickling lime and acid at the same time since they essentially serve to cancel each other out.

Personally I'd cut back on the lactic and aim for a mash pH of 5.6.  However this would be a whole 'nother discussion which no one ever wants to hear about.  You can adjust pH to 5.0-5.1 with more acid after the boil if you wish, that's cool.

[denny]

After toying around Bru'n Water, here is what I have:
1.6 grams of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride each, with .5 gram of pickling lime, along with 2.5 ml of lactic acid gives me 41ppm calcium, 25 ppm sulfate, 29 ppm chloride, -49ppm bicarbonate, and a pH of 5.4. Thoughts?

Not bad, not bad at all.  Further discussion is just for "fun" at this point:

It seems odd to have both lactic and pickling lime in the same water regimen.  The lactic reduces pH, while the pickling lime does the opposite, increasing alkalinity or neutralizing part of the acid, only to add a few ppm calcium.  If concerned about calcium level, I'd rather add calcium chloride.  Personal preference.  Just seems weird to use both pickling lime and acid at the same time since they essentially serve to cancel each other out.

Personally I'd cut back on the lactic and aim for a mash pH of 5.6.  However this would be a whole 'nother discussion which no one ever wants to hear about.  You can adjust pH to 5.0-5.1 with more acid after the boil if you wish, that's cool.

Agreed on the lactic/lime comment.  I accidentally did that on 2 batches recently.  Not good.