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Author Topic: Porter vs. Stout  (Read 11823 times)

Offline Kevin

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2019, 07:00:48 pm »
In the 1800's right up to the 1940's London brewers partigyled Stout and Porter from the same batch. So the difference is... not much.

Here's is Ron Pattinson's take on the whole question... http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2007/07/difference-between-porter-and-stout.html
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Offline Robert

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2019, 07:15:22 pm »
With oatmeal it gets really sneaky.  In the 1890s Maclay of Alloa, Scotland produced a beer called Oat Malt Stout.  It was made with 30% oat malt, and the use of oat malt was patented, and the use of the term trademarked.

London brewers wanted to cash in on its popularity.

They started to include flaked oats (no trademark on "oatmeal") in their porter grists -- all of them -- but at only less than 0.5% of the grist usually:  just enough that "oatmeal" could legally be put on the label.

Then they took the *exact same beer* and sold some of it as "porter," and some of it as "oatmeal stout."  And of course customers would swear they could taste a difference, especially after paying more for "oatmeal stout."
Rob Stein
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Offline Kevin

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2019, 07:14:52 am »
It's not that they took the exact same beer and sold it as porter... it's that porter and stout were partigyled from the same grist.
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Offline Kevin

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2019, 07:19:03 am »


Historically, you're right, stout and porter were just the same thing at different  strengths.  They were usually parti-gyled (literally, "split batch,") which in traditional British brewing practice means a single strong wort is brewed, split into multiple fermenters, and each fermenter diluted with water before pitching to different gravities to produce different strength beers with the same flavor profile.


I have never come across any information that says they diluted with water. Partigyling then, and today (Fullers), uses the technique of blending the separate worts to achieve the required gravity.
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Offline Iliff Ave

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2019, 07:44:48 am »
Stout - the use of roasted barley is pretty much essential
Porter - the use of roasted barley should be restrained or avoided altogether. Other roasted malts should be used in it's place.

This is just how I look at it for my brewing purposes....
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Offline Robert

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2019, 07:52:09 am »


Historically, you're right, stout and porter were just the same thing at different  strengths.  They were usually parti-gyled (literally, "split batch,") which in traditional British brewing practice means a single strong wort is brewed, split into multiple fermenters, and each fermenter diluted with water before pitching to different gravities to produce different strength beers with the same flavor profile.


I have never come across any information that says they diluted with water. Partigyling then, and today (Fullers), uses the technique of blending the separate worts to achieve the required gravity.
You are correct, looking back at all my information, the process was as you describe, at least in the 19th and 20th centuries.  Separate worts were made from the same grist and boiled and hopped separately, before blending the different worts to produce worts of different gravities in the fermenters.  What remains the same is that the porters and stouts (or old ales and milds, etc.) were all produced from a single grist, so stout and porter are really differentiated only by strength.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 08:02:19 am by Robert »
Rob Stein
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Offline Robert

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2019, 08:01:49 am »
Stout - the use of roasted barley is pretty much essential
Porter - the use of roasted barley should be restrained or avoided altogether. Other roasted malts should be used in it's place.

This is just how I look at it for my brewing purposes....
Roasted barley has never been much used by most brewers, especially English brewers.  Stouts and porters have had much the same grist over time, based on pale and black malt, and -- especially in London -- brown malt.  Roasted barley is a unique, signature ingredient in Guinness, and since that is the first point of contact most of us have had with something called "stout," this has probably led to the association of roasted barley with stout in the home and craft brewer's mind.  BTW the familiar recipe templates for "Guinness," with flaked barley included, are ultimately based on an article claiming to represent the recipe as it stood in the early 1980s.  This should not be considered representative of stouts in general, or even of Guinness except for possibly in that slice of time.
Rob Stein
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Offline Iliff Ave

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2019, 08:15:52 am »
Stout - the use of roasted barley is pretty much essential
Porter - the use of roasted barley should be restrained or avoided altogether. Other roasted malts should be used in it's place.

This is just how I look at it for my brewing purposes....
Roasted barley has never been much used by most brewers, especially English brewers.  Stouts and porters have had much the same grist over time, based on pale and black malt, and -- especially in London -- brown malt.  Roasted barley is a unique, signature ingredient in Guinness, and since that is the first point of contact most of us have had with something called "stout," this has probably led to the association of roasted barley with stout in the home and craft brewer's mind.  BTW the familiar recipe templates for "Guinness," with flaked barley included, are ultimately based on an article claiming to represent the recipe as it stood in the early 1980s.  This should not be considered representative of stouts in general, or even of Guinness except for possibly in that slice of time.

Sounds cool. I will keep my opinion unchanged for my purposes. Most "modern" stouts seem to incorporate roasted barley.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2019, 08:18:25 am »


Like I said, what the terms mean depends on when, where, (and maybe who!) you are talking about.
Rob Stein
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Offline denny

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2019, 08:19:14 am »
Stout - the use of roasted barley is pretty much essential
Porter - the use of roasted barley should be restrained or avoided altogether. Other roasted malts should be used in it's place.

This is just how I look at it for my brewing purposes....

I'm with you to a great extent. I'll use roasted barley in a stout, but not a porter. In porter I prefer a pinch of black patent.  And I don't care whether it fits anyone's definition....that's just how I do it.
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2019, 08:38:31 am »
Stout - the use of roasted barley is pretty much essential
Porter - the use of roasted barley should be restrained or avoided altogether. Other roasted malts should be used in it's place.

This is just how I look at it for my brewing purposes....

I'm with you to a great extent. I'll use roasted barley in a stout, but not a porter. In porter I prefer a pinch of black patent.  And I don't care whether it fits anyone's definition....that's just how I do it.
Me too.  I would just add that from a BJCP judge perspective and not historically precise, the difference is the roast barley.
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Offline Visor

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2019, 09:13:23 am »
 I finally gave up trying to figure out the difference between the two, but if anyone ever manages to definitively explain the difference in a manner that is generally accepted by brewers and drinkers, maybe for an encore they'll take on the burning question of why a carrot is oranger than an orange.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2019, 10:10:05 am »
Then I want to know how to tell a hoagie from a sub.
Rob Stein
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Offline Megary

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2019, 11:18:05 am »
Stout - the use of roasted barley is pretty much essential
Porter - the use of roasted barley should be restrained or avoided altogether. Other roasted malts should be used in it's place.

This is just how I look at it for my brewing purposes....

This is what I was wondering.  History lessons aside, what do we all do - IF ANYTHING - to distinguish a porter from a stout in our brewhouses today?

My stout is a little darker (Roasted Barley in the stout vs. Brown in the porter), a little higher in ABV, a little more IBU's than my porter.  I don't do that to make either of them authentic or "to style" as defined by the BJCP.  I just do it for my own sanity.

Offline denny

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Re: Porter vs. Stout
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2019, 11:21:22 am »
Stout - the use of roasted barley is pretty much essential
Porter - the use of roasted barley should be restrained or avoided altogether. Other roasted malts should be used in it's place.

This is just how I look at it for my brewing purposes....

This is what I was wondering.  History lessons aside, what do we all do - IF ANYTHING - to distinguish a porter from a stout in our brewhouses today?

My stout is a little darker (Roasted Barley in the stout vs. Brown in the porter), a little higher in ABV, a little more IBU's than my porter.  I don't do that to make either of them authentic or "to style" as defined by the BJCP.  I just do it for my own sanity.

You do whatever you want to and call it whatever you want to.  I find ABV to be a canard....look at Guinness.   Much lower ABV than about any porter out there.
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