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Author Topic: if you could improve the standard north american industrial lager in 1 step how?  (Read 8952 times)

Offline fredthecat

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Sorry for the awkward title, but that was the maximum characters. So...

If you could improve the standard north american industrial lager (NAIL) in one step or one switch out what would it be?

please note: heineken or becks for example are not a north american industrial lager. both of these beers are all malt. to clarify i mean: coors, labatt blue, budweiser, pabst blue ribbon, miller, busch, etc. corn, rice, HFCS or other adjunct(?) in significant amounts, 4.5-5% ABV, really low hopping, brewed to a high gravity then diluted before packaging, mostly about marketing over actual beer itself. lager yeast used? etc.

let's try to keep the single change price-reasonable, so it's not like "dryhop with 2oz per gallon of c-hops". but increasing IBUs by 5 or 10 points with ultra-high AA hops is surely doable. adding 2% crystal malt, increase alcohol by 1% ABV so at least they get you drunker, same wort and everything but saison yeast. etc. even something like "change all these beers to dark beers by using 3% black patent/chocolate malt and caramel colour to darken a bit more to reach ~30SRM" is fine

my thoughts:
stop the high-gravity brewing. i remember some beers in east asia that were made by asahi (they make a zillion barely different versions of NAILs there) and were marketed as just having the feature of brewed to original gravity. and while not good, they were noticeably better on repeated tastings than the standard hi-OG brewed/then diluted flagship products.



?

Offline mchrispen

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Two advantages are the ability to adjust the water chemistry with the blended water and to blending to taste. While you are diluting the "flavor" you are also diluted the off-flavors even further (if they exist in the fermented high gravity beer).


Soley based on a few of the really good craft American lagers (ABGB, pFriem, Live Oak, etc.) - I would say a simple increase in the bitterness for a more balanced flavor profile would be my choice.




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Offline majorvices

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All grain 2 row pilsner malt (no corn or rice) - but I want to change the hops too! lol

Offline fredthecat

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Two advantages are the ability to adjust the water chemistry with the blended water and to blending to taste. While you are diluting the "flavor" you are also diluted the off-flavors even further (if they exist in the fermented high gravity beer).


Soley based on a few of the really good craft American lagers (ABGB, pFriem, Live Oak, etc.) - I would say a simple increase in the bitterness for a more balanced flavor profile would be my choice.


yes, thats true. my answer is really kind of a two-action one, because i didnt clarify "do an appropriate and slow fermentation with healthy wort, with a lower OG" anyway tho...


yeah bumping up the IBU a bit is a really safe bet. there is a very cheap 8% ABV "IIPA" i get sometimes that has a really high bitterness but almost no hop flavour. but its still much better than malt liquor simply by having a lot of defects and a generally crappy beer hidden by at least 70 sharp IBU.

some overly sweet corny NAIL could turn out nicely with 10 more IBU






All grain 2 row pilsner malt (no corn or rice) - but I want to change the hops too! lol

do you know if having significant (~30% ?) corn or rice affects the quality of the nutrition in the wort for the yeast?


you could add as a second choice "but this with the hops" also? im curious


Offline Bob357

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Why would you waste your time when everything you need to brew superior beers is available? As a homebrewer you have the freedom to brew whatever suits your taste, so I see no need to try and alter a style when you can start from scratch and brew what you want.
Beer is my bucket list,

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Offline majorvices

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Six row is high in protein so the rice and corn cuts back on the protein. Six row is also high in enzymes to help the corn convert and husk material to help lautering so it's a perfect combination. Doesn't have anything to do with yeast nutrients to my knowledge

Offline Village Taphouse

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Why would you waste your time when everything you need to brew superior beers is available? As a homebrewer you have the freedom to brew whatever suits your taste, so I see no need to try and alter a style when you can start from scratch and brew what you want.
I kind of feel like this.

I make A LOT of "gold lagers".  Many of them have a German tilt but they may not be true-to-style German beers.  I may make a gold beer with good pilsner malt like Weyermann or Best Malz (sometimes Avangard and even Swaen) and add Vienna or Munich 1 and then use good, fresh Hallertau hops or maybe Spalt Select and use a yeast that lends a nice character to the beer like 2124, Omega Bayern or 940 so that the beer doesn't come out so bland.  Imagine a 5% beer with anywhere from 20 to 25 IBUs, SRM 4-5 and made with those ingredients.  Clearly I cannot try to improve a NAIL lager with just one step but... I can make my version of an "everyday beer".  Also, I'll mention that if I went to someone's house and they offered me a Miller Lite or Coors, etc. I will happily drink it.  It may not be my #1 choice but I'm with a friend or family member drinking beer.  ;)
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline Oiscout

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Six row is high in protein so the rice and corn cuts back on the protein. Six row is also high in enzymes to help the corn convert and husk material to help lautering so it's a perfect combination. Doesn't have anything to do with yeast nutrients to my knowledge
My favorite recipe is 80 percent 6 row 10 percent flaked corn and 10 percent wheat and WlP001!!! And hallertau for bittering

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Offline waltsmalt

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Also, I'll mention that if I went to someone's house and they offered me a Miller Lite or Coors, etc. I will happily drink it.  It may not be my #1 choice but I'm with a friend or family member drinking beer.  ;)

Agree with this...

Offline Village Taphouse

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The really funny part is that if you were to find yourself in central Europe you would see a lot of "everyday beer" that is excellent beer.  It's not crappy Busch Light but it's also not considered some high and mighty beer.  It's just well-made gold lager meant to be balanced and delicious and meant to appeal to as many people as possible.  Some of the names you recognize and some you do not but it's all good.  It's beer in that spirit that I try to make myself... balanced, refreshing and of the highest quality that I can make it.  The North American Industrial Lager has its place.  It's a style like any other but my preference would be to just leave it right where it is.  When I got back from Europe I found myself at the grocery store and a guy walked out of the liquor department with 2 cases of Bud Light and it just about broke my brain.  :D
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline dannyjed

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Use Mecca Grade malt.


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Offline Saccharomyces

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Six row is high in protein so the rice and corn cuts back on the protein. Six row is also high in enzymes to help the corn convert and husk material to help lautering so it's a perfect combination. Doesn't have anything to do with yeast nutrients to my knowledge

If you have not tried it, you should give Yuengling Traditional Lager a shot before you judge adjunct lager as inferior.  That beer is about as close to a Pre-Pro Lager as you will find today. It is an adjunct lager that drinks like a craft lager. Yuengling has been making beer for almost 200 years. 

Offline Saccharomyces

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Pre-Pro Pils done right is one of my favorite beer styles.  The German and Bohemian brewmasters who created this style knew what they were doing.  in fact, what they did is nothing short of genius. I briefly covered their genius in my blog entry "Have You Seen Ester" (https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/have-you-seen-ester).  What the industrial brewers are making today is the result of WWII.  Brewers had to make a beer that they could sell to women, which meant lighter and less bitter.  The formula turned out to be very profitable. What most of us like does not translate to mass appeal.  All we need to do is look at hard seltzer to realize that we are out of sync with the mainstream.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 12:18:15 pm by Saccharomyces »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Six row is high in protein so the rice and corn cuts back on the protein. Six row is also high in enzymes to help the corn convert and husk material to help lautering so it's a perfect combination. Doesn't have anything to do with yeast nutrients to my knowledge

I've made some excellent CAPs with 6 row and 20% corn.

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Offline Village Taphouse

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If you have not tried it, you should give Yuengling Traditional Lager a shot before you judge adjunct lager as inferior.  That beer is about as close to a Pre-Pro Lager as you will find today. It is an adjunct lager that drinks like a craft lager. Yuengling has been making beer for almost 200 years.
I know this has been discussed here but I do have a soft spot for Yuengling.  One reason may be that I can't get it here in Illinois so it's a sort of forbidden fruit.  I was visiting my inlaws in Islamorada a couple years ago and we were having lunch in a little beachside place and I ordered a Yuengling and my FIL ordered one too.  It was a draft in a clear plastic cup and it was fresh and delicious.  My FIL raised his glass and said, "It's a good beer".  The head was good, the beer was fresh-tasting and clean.  Fast forward to the next day when my wife and I drove down to Key West and went to Irish Kevin's and I ordered a Yuengling.  The difference was remarkable.  No head.  No head at all.  Funky-tasting like maybe it was old or mishandled, maybe the draft lines were dirty... not sure.  When it's good... it's good, I agree.  I found myself in Indiana where my daughter went to school and stopped at a gas station where they had 24 ounce cans of Yuengling and I bought a sixer and brought them home.  Delicious! 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.