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Author Topic: if you could improve the standard north american industrial lager in 1 step how?  (Read 9291 times)

Offline Village Taphouse

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I've been doing this a bit recently as well, Bayern and pils+1 malt and a single hop makes nice easy drinking beer. I keep it closer to 25-35 IBUs though.

I know this was banned at the beginning, but I'd add a small dry hop to bring it closer to that Pivo pils/italian style pilsner. Plenty of hops are available on the spot market for less than $8/lb for 2020 pellets, I'm positive the buyers could get that down to $0.20 an ounce or less. I'd argue that'd be cheaper than not doing high gravity brewing.
I made a batch of that Tipopils (based on a recipe in BEER & BREWING) and if you get your hands on some Spalt Select and add a small dry hop addition the beer is really nice.  The Spalt Select (mentioned in the article as a favorite of the brewer) really shine.  Again, sorry for the thread derailment.   ???
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline denny

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Sorry for the awkward title, but that was the maximum characters. So...

If you could improve the standard north american industrial lager (NAIL) in one step or one switch out what would it be?

please note: heineken or becks for example are not a north american industrial lager. both of these beers are all malt. to clarify i mean: coors, labatt blue, budweiser, pabst blue ribbon, miller, busch, etc. corn, rice, HFCS or other adjunct(?) in significant amounts, 4.5-5% ABV, really low hopping, brewed to a high gravity then diluted before packaging, mostly about marketing over actual beer itself. lager yeast used? etc.

let's try to keep the single change price-reasonable, so it's not like "dryhop with 2oz per gallon of c-hops". but increasing IBUs by 5 or 10 points with ultra-high AA hops is surely doable. adding 2% crystal malt, increase alcohol by 1% ABV so at least they get you drunker, same wort and everything but saison yeast. etc. even something like "change all these beers to dark beers by using 3% black patent/chocolate malt and caramel colour to darken a bit more to reach ~30SRM" is fine

my thoughts:
stop the high-gravity brewing. i remember some beers in east asia that were made by asahi (they make a zillion barely different versions of NAILs there) and were marketed as just having the feature of brewed to original gravity. and while not good, they were noticeably better on repeated tastings than the standard hi-OG brewed/then diluted flagship products.



?

Why?  You're implying it needs to be changed.  It is what it is.   A lot of people obviously like it the way it is.  If you don't, then don't drink it.  But it is the height of hubris to imply it needs to be changed simply to appease beer nerds. 
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Offline majorvices

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I just always thought Budweiser should make an all malt beer with 2 row pilsner malt that was nationally distributed. I'd drink it. I liked the Pale Ale they tried to produce well enough.

Offline denny

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I just always thought Budweiser should make an all malt beer with 2 row pilsner malt that was nationally distributed. I'd drink it. I liked the Pale Ale they tried to produce well enough.

Yeah, but that's a different beer, right? You change a NAIL, and it's no longer a NAIL.  It's kinda like saying let's improve tripel by making it all malt.  Sure, go ahead, but then it's not a tripel.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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I generally agree.  When you're a brewer with access to so much great stuff, you can make anything you like and for some that might be a beer that starts as a NAIL but has some extra sorcery added to make it what you want.  I can't tell you how often I thank my lucky stars to be able to make whatever beers I envision.  I feel like there is a chasm in the beer world and on one end are NAILs and on the other end there are quirky craft beers.  Yes there is a middle-ground but there are A LOT of beers out on the end of the spectrum.  Try finding just a normal APA or blonde ale.  They exist but they're not the norm.  Okay, that's probably strike three for me on derailing the thread so... I'll show myself out.  ;)
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Offline Slowbrew

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I think my, and likely many others, started brewing because we were ready to move beyond NAILs.  I have never had a interest in brewing a little bit better Bud Light. 
Of course, mine is not the only opinion, but I can sum up my approach to making one change to improve a NAIL as "brew something other than a NAIL".

I give the big boys credit for their skill.  They are truly exceptional at what they do.  Unfortunately what the do is flavorless and unsatisfying to me.  IMHO.

Paul
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Offline fredthecat

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I went to Ontario to fish with my dad when I was about 19.  My dad loved Labatt's Blue in the brown bottle and with the blue label.  May have been his favorite beer.  He would say, "If I find it here at home, it's not as good.  It's in a green bottle with a green label and it's not the same".  But it absolutely was good when I had it (of course I was 19 so...).  I can't get behind the concept that it was made with an ale yeast but it could have been an off-the-map yeast which gave it a distinct character.

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/478/1835/

labatt 50, not labatt blue. labatt 50 definitely has an ale yeast.


I've been doing this a bit recently as well, Bayern and pils+1 malt and a single hop makes nice easy drinking beer. I keep it closer to 25-35 IBUs though.

I know this was banned at the beginning, but I'd add a small dry hop to bring it closer to that Pivo pils/italian style pilsner. Plenty of hops are available on the spot market for less than $8/lb for 2020 pellets, I'm positive the buyers could get that down to $0.20 an ounce or less. I'd argue that'd be cheaper than not doing high gravity brewing.

Nope, i just meant like an expensive huge amount of dryhopping, i should have clarified. but yes, say 0.25oz a gallon im sure could happen. there is a happoshu beer that came out in korea that had cascade dry hopping, and the grist was complete garbage, but 5% alcohol bubbly water with the faintest grain taste and a noticeable cascade dryhop was actually pretty decent.


Why?  You're implying it needs to be changed.  It is what it is.   A lot of people obviously like it the way it is.  If you don't, then don't drink it.  But it is the height of hubris to imply it needs to be changed simply to appease beer nerds.

don't even really know what to say to this. in japan they make happoshu which probably costs even less than bud light to make and is far more palatable.

honestly denny. re-read your post and think about it.

I think my, and likely many others, started brewing because we were ready to move beyond NAILs.  I have never had a interest in brewing a little bit better Bud Light. 
Of course, mine is not the only opinion, but I can sum up my approach to making one change to improve a NAIL as "brew something other than a NAIL".

I give the big boys credit for their skill.  They are truly exceptional at what they do.  Unfortunately what the do is flavorless and unsatisfying to me.  IMHO.

at no time did i state i wanted to homebrew a NAIL, and i do not want to do so.

i do not give them credit for their skill. i reject the general concensus that "it is so hard to make beer as consistent and 'flavourless' as they do" and so on. i hate drinking that crap, its not good at all. and i've had commercial brewers who make better NAIL like cheapo beer. most of the real costs they incur are marketing/branding/events etc. totally wasted money, nothing to do with the quality of the product at all.

if you are not interested in this brain exercise, then don't participate.

some favourite junk beers of mine over the years and reasons why:
labatt max ICE - it is 7.1% alcohol and easily the best tasting malt liquor (not saying much, but it really is) out there
hite STOUT - not a stout at all, used to be as low as 50cents a can, its a NAIL with a tiny bit of black malt added and it ends up making it way more palatable.
hite filite - some kind of happoshu created to avoid tax on malt based drinks. i think they break down starch with enzymes. whatever extremely cheap process they use, they cover it up with decent ~20 IBU and a small amount of cascade dry hopping. it comes in 2.6litre bottles for as low as $1.50. japanese happoshu in general, they try to bitter it a bit more (at least 15IBU or more) to make it taste less like crap.
labatt 50 - a nail with some ale yeast and a tiny bit of late boil hopping.
molson export - again, not actually a bad beer. but definitely some kind of NAIL(NAIA?)
harbin beer and a lot of the weird 3.6%< tax bracket chinese beer. goes down truly like water. no gross off tastes, maybe cause of the low alcohol. NAILs, consider lowering your alcohol?

etc. there is always room for improvement, let alone discussion.




Offline fredthecat

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re: labatt 50 again


"Notes: John and Hugh Labatt, grandsons of founder John K. Labatt, launched Labatt 50 in 1950 to commemorate 50 years of partnership. The first light-tasting ale introduced in Canada, Labatt 50 was Canada's best-selling beer until 1979 when, with the increasing popularity of lagers, it was surpassed by Labatt Blue. Labatt 50 is fermented using a special ale yeast, in use at Labatt since 1933. Specially-selected North American hops and a good balance of dryness, complemented by a fruity taste, provide Labatt 50 with all the distinguishing features of a true ale. "

this is a beer at least originally formulated in 1950. it is significantly better than the contemporary NAILS including its replacement and replacements competitor: labatt blue and molson canadian. looks like mainstream beer has been getting demonstrably worse over time. anyoe have any anecdotes about rheingold(?), blatz, etc old school breweries? were they actually good at all?

Offline denny

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"    Why?  You're implying it needs to be changed.  It is what it is.   A lot of people obviously like it the way it is.  If you don't, then don't drink it.  But it is the height of hubris to imply it needs to be changed simply to appease beer nerds.


don't even really know what to say to this. in japan they make happoshu which probably costs even less than bud light to make and is far more palatable.

honestly denny. re-read your post and think about it."

What's to think about  You're saying you want NAIL to be a different beer.  But it's no brewed for you.  It's brewed for 10s of millions of others and they're fine with it the way it is.  To them there's nothing wrong with it so nothing needs to be changed.
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Offline Oiscout

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You know thinking about this. I really like Moosehead

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Offline majorvices

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Offline HopDen

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At the sake of sounding ignorant, what is a NAIL beer?

Offline ynotbrusum

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North American Industrial Lager - the mega brews.....
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Offline HopDen

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North American Industrial Lager - the mega brews.....

Thanks!

Offline fredthecat

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You know thinking about this. I really like Moosehead

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yup, haven't had it in a while. not sure how they do it exactly, but people say its the oldest independent brewery in canada now.

i mean, is moosehead a north american industrial lager or is it a "pale lager"? what if they brew with certain aspects of both.