Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: 34/70 - Slow Start?  (Read 5741 times)

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2021, 08:27:39 pm »
I am beginning to believe that the Lallemand strains may benefit for aeration.

That's interesting. I still usually aerate dry yeast anyway. Anecdotal evidence has shown that I get shorter lag, so why not.

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7838
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2021, 08:31:41 pm »
.... Any lag under 48 hours isn't really anything to stress about. ...
This is what I think the real issue is. Lag time isn't a problem unless it leads to a problem in the finished beer, such as off flavors or underattenuation. If your only issue is a longer lag time, but the beer turns out fine, then there's no real issue.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline waltsmalt

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2021, 11:15:29 pm »
Just to circle back, it's now active.  Yeah, I can't believe I underpitched this.  Not sure what I was thinking, other than I wasn't.  With the last two batches I made lazy mistakes.  Oh well, it's just homebrewing. 

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2021, 08:39:11 am »
.... Any lag under 48 hours isn't really anything to stress about. ...
This is what I think the real issue is. Lag time isn't a problem unless it leads to a problem in the finished beer, such as off flavors or underattenuation. If your only issue is a longer lag time, but the beer turns out fine, then there's no real issue.

48 hours with dry yeast, especially with dry lager yeast, is definitely not uncommon. I think lag time is a good way to gauge pitching rates and achieve consistent results. A lot of brewer's experiences are anecdotal - my anecdotal experience is that you don't want too long of a lag. You also don't want too short of a lag. A four hour lag can often be more of a concern than a 48 hour lag.

When I was brewing professionally lag was taken pretty seriously and tracked every batch because it was a good way to gauge consistency. Usually a standard 12 hours was the lag we were looking for. I definitely don't think it is as important with homebrewers  to worry about lag time that much - though there's also no reason why it can't be. Regardless, 48 hours is starting to reach the moment of concern. As a homebrewer, if I see no sign of fermentation at 48 hours - no wisps of foam and no airlock bubbles - I'm looking to pitching more yeast. And i like to see no more than a 24 hour lag, personally, even with dry lager yeast.

But if I see a few signs of fermentatioon at 48 hours - there's no stress. No "heartburn" as someone put it. Thanks Nexium ;) My .02.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 08:41:40 am by majorvices »

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27326
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2021, 08:54:46 am »
.... Any lag under 48 hours isn't really anything to stress about. ...
This is what I think the real issue is. Lag time isn't a problem unless it leads to a problem in the finished beer, such as off flavors or underattenuation. If your only issue is a longer lag time, but the beer turns out fine, then there's no real issue.

Agreed.  I'd extend that to 72 hours.  I'm mystified by the emphasis on a short lag time.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4905
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2021, 09:01:43 am »
.... Any lag under 48 hours isn't really anything to stress about. ...
This is what I think the real issue is. Lag time isn't a problem unless it leads to a problem in the finished beer, such as off flavors or underattenuation. If your only issue is a longer lag time, but the beer turns out fine, then there's no real issue.

Agreed.  I'd extend that to 72 hours.  I'm mystified by the emphasis on a short lag time.

And for what it is worth, I see very little difference in the length of time for fermentation overall.  Having a Tilt Hydrometer, it is interesting to see fermentation beginning well before seeing any visible evidence of that in the wort.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2021, 09:21:44 am »
As I mentioned, it's about consistent results. I don't want a super short lag any more than I want a super long lag. To flip the coin; if people are not worried about a 72+ hour lag that's fine. But there's also nothing wrong with recommending pitching rates to those who are looking for consistency.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 09:25:09 am by majorvices »

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2021, 09:24:00 am »
.... Any lag under 48 hours isn't really anything to stress about. ...
This is what I think the real issue is. Lag time isn't a problem unless it leads to a problem in the finished beer, such as off flavors or underattenuation. If your only issue is a longer lag time, but the beer turns out fine, then there's no real issue.

Agreed.  I'd extend that to 72 hours.  I'm mystified by the emphasis on a short lag time.

And for what it is worth, I see very little difference in the length of time for fermentation overall.  Having a Tilt Hydrometer, it is interesting to see fermentation beginning well before seeing any visible evidence of that in the wort.

Last I checked I'm drinking a beer made with a 10 day fermentation faster than I am one with a 15. Just sayin'. ;)

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4905
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2021, 09:31:59 am »
.... Any lag under 48 hours isn't really anything to stress about. ...
This is what I think the real issue is. Lag time isn't a problem unless it leads to a problem in the finished beer, such as off flavors or underattenuation. If your only issue is a longer lag time, but the beer turns out fine, then there's no real issue.

Agreed.  I'd extend that to 72 hours.  I'm mystified by the emphasis on a short lag time.

And for what it is worth, I see very little difference in the length of time for fermentation overall.  Having a Tilt Hydrometer, it is interesting to see fermentation beginning well before seeing any visible evidence of that in the wort.

Last I checked I'm drinking a beer made with a 10 day fermentation faster than I am one with a 15. Just sayin'. ;)

Yep, I appreciate that, Keith.  Just that the lag hasn't added to the overall fermentation time period of the "lagged" batch, or at least not appreciably in my experience.  In other words, the time from pitching to racking to the serving keg is equal in total number of days, even taking into account the longer lag period.  YMMV, of course.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2021, 09:49:52 am »
I don't disagree at all. In fact, as I stated, I'd rather have a 48 hour lag than a 4 hour lag. And I certainly wouldn't tell someone their beer is ruined after a 72 hour lag or even a 5 day lag. I'd never say "well that 3 day fermentation has to produce a beter beer than a 5 day". That would be foolish.

A lag time is just a goal post. It can be different for every brewer. If 72 hours is your jam go with that. If 5 days is it, cool. But everyone is going to have one and everyone is entitled to give their opinion.

From my empirical standpoint pitching rates help rather than hinder understanding how much yeast needs to be pitched. They should not be immutable -- they are only guidelines. But they help avoid the problem associated with underpicthing as well as pverpicthing. So I'm not sure why they have suddenly become discredited on this forum. That's all I'm pushing back against.

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6175
34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2021, 10:21:10 am »
As I mentioned, it's about consistent results. I don't want a super short lag any more than I want a super long lag. To flip the coin; if people are not worried about a 72+ hour lag that's fine. But there's also nothing wrong with recommending pitching rates to those who are looking for consistency.

That’s exactly what I was thinking when I read Denny’s comment. I wasn’t necessarily looking for X lag, I was looking for consistent repeatable results. Robert described his consistency and I wanted that in my brewery. Whether that was going to be 12 hrs or 24 hrs was not the issue. The issue was (still is) that it is the same — within a given tolerance — each time I brew.

Until I began intentional measurements [based on gravity] I was all over the map.  It was a complete guessing game as to when I’d see activity, how long a ferment would take, and where it would finish. It did not fit my concept of consistency so I researched and found what I was looking for to create those repeatable results.

When I hear of a long lag, I equate it to a symptom of inconsistent measurement because that was the results I experienced before I began more intentional measurements.

It doesn’t matter what measurement is used as long as it is constant.

[Fermentis uses .5-.8 grams per liter for Ale and .8-1.2 gram per liter for Lager.]

Keith’s approach is gravity points divided by a factor of 25.  For a 5 gal batch, multiply the result by 5.5 for Ale yeast and 11 for Lager yeast. Logic follows to double it for 10 gal.

[Lallemand uses roughly 6 for Ale and 12 for Lager multiplied by gravity points divided by 25.]

For me that’s a little low because I ferment 5.5 gals so 6.5 and 13 multiplied by gravity points divided by 25 would probably be closer to what I pitch but that’s not the point. The point is to do the same thing, at the same time, every time for consistent results.

A ‘pack a batch, two in a lager’ is simply not a [consistent] measurement [batch to batch] in my eyes [because it does not take into consideration batch size or gravity].

[edits]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 01:20:51 pm by BrewBama »

Offline Bel Air Brewing

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2021, 11:15:07 am »
As I mentioned, it's about consistent results. I don't want a super short lag any more than I want a super long lag. To flip the coin; if people are not worried about a 72+ hour lag that's fine. But there's also nothing wrong with recommending pitching rates to those who are looking for consistency.

That’s exactly what I was thinking when I read Denny’s comment. I wasn’t necessarily looking for X lag, I was looking for consistent repeatable results. Robert described his consistency and I wanted that in my brewery. Whether that was going to be 12 hrs or 24 hrs was not the issue. The issue was (still is) that it is the same — within a given tolerance — each time I brew.


It doesn’t matter what measurement is used as long as it is constant. Keith’s approach is gravity points divided by a factor of 25.  For a 5 gal batch, multiply the result by 5.5 for Ale yeast and 11 for Lager yeast. Logic follows to double it for 10 gal.

We get reliable, and very repeatable results when pitching W-34/70 that has been harvested from a previous brew. For those who are looking for a short lag time, this yeast takes off very quick. This example is using a fresh slurry, with less than 10 days dormant time.

Active fermentation activity will commence inside of a couple hours.

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6175
34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2021, 11:20:41 am »
That’s great. ...but I am talking about dry yeast pitch rate (not harvested slurry).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 01:09:07 pm by BrewBama »

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4905
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2021, 02:31:52 pm »
I can appreciate and agree on the levels of dry yeast pitching that you are suggesting as being reasonable and within common practice and yeast manufacturers' suggested range of volume.  Speed to "post lag" by pitching more dry yeast is the discussion point here, because, I mostly repitch from slurry, using it within an hour or so of harvest, typically (and measured by ladle scoop volume).  Lag is non-existent in those instances (a few short hours at most in my experience). 

How quickly one reaches post-lag (is that a real term?) may well be as dependent on yeast status (vitality, quiescient or active, etc...) as it is yeast volume pitched.  I suppose it is pretty ripe for experiment - to see if there is a noticeable difference in the end result.

In any event,  I have enjoyed the discussion and hold nothing against those seeking stricter uniformity in process.  Because my beer selection is typically very low ABV (OG's rarely above 1.040 anymore), my beers finish remarkably quickly and well attenuated, regardless of the pitch (within reason, of course; I am not advocating severe underpitching for anything but a Hefeweizen or other style where stressed yeast is considered a valuable thing).

Cheers, guys.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
Re: 34/70 - Slow Start?
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2021, 02:32:13 pm »
What are your observations behind this? Just curious. I haven't used all the Lallemand strains, but the five I've used made great beer without aeration.

Come to think of it, it is not just the Lallemand strains that would benefit from aeration.  Pretty much all of the dry yeast manufacturers' recommend pitching rates are low, even for a yeast with fully charged ergosterol reserves.  Let's look at Fermentis W-34/70.

Quote
PITCHING: 80 to 120 g/hl for fermentation at 12°C – 15°C (53.6-59°F).
increase pitching for fermentation lower than 12°C (53°F), up to 200 to 300 g/hl at 9°C (48°F)


A hectoliter is 26.4 gallons, so were looking at a pitching rate in the range 3 to 4.5 grams of yeast per gallon.   With an at time of packaging viable cell density of 6B cells per gram, pitching 22g (two packages) provides us with at most 6B * 22 = 132B cells.  That cell density is less than the cell density of a 1L SNS starter pitched at high krausen.

Now, something that I overlooked and probably most people overlook when pitching is this part:

Quote
REHYDRATION INSTRUCTIONS:
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 21 to 25 °C (70°F to 77°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.

Whether the yeast is rehydrated using water or wort, the temperature needs to be at least 20C (68F).   How many people are cooling their wort to fermentation temperature and then pitching the yeast directly into the wort?  If anyone wants to know why the onset of fermentation takes so long with W-34/70, here is your sign.  Not only are we underpitching, we are underpitching into non-aerated wort at a temperature that dry yeast should not be rehydrated.  In essence, we are shocking the heck out of a culture that still needs to double one more time than a 1L liquid starter.  I filled my fermenation vessel partially, stirred in two packages of W-34/70, and then added the remaining wort.  The wort temperature was 61F at time of pitching.  I brought the temperature down to 53F over a period of 6 hours.  Fermentation started in just under 24 hours and ramped up to a less than two second interval strong heartbeat CO2 blowoff in less than 48 hours.

With that said, the reason why W-34/70 does better when repitched is because we are usually pitching at least 200B viable cells per 19L of well-aerated wort and the culture is usually cold when pitched; therefore, there is not as much environmental shock.  This hypothesis is easy to test.  Bascially, start two packages of W-34/70 in 1L of 70F 1.040 wort using the SNS method.  When the starter reaches high krasuen, place it in the refrigerator until the temperature matches that of the well-aerated wort into which it will be pitched.  I am willing to bet that starter propagation time + time to the onset of active fermentation after the starter has been pitched is shorter than just pitching dry yeast into cold wort.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 12:24:45 pm by Saccharomyces »