[BrewBama]

I've been searching and cannot find specific Ca recommendations beyond those that influence mash pH.

Calcium (Ca): Aids in extraction of fine bittering principles from hops. Enhances protein coagulation (hot and cold break). Beneficial to yeast. Aids shelf life. 50 - 200 ppm is typical. - http://brewery.org/library/wchmprimer.html

I understand that I need at least 50 ppm in the mash but I have also read that not all minerals make it from the MLT to the kettle which also needs Ca for the reasoning cited above. So if I hit in the neighborhood of 50 in the MLT I’ll have less than 50 in the kettle.

My question is: Is less that 50 ppm in the kettle OK? Do I need more?  If so, how much more?  I can’t find a recommended range like I can for the MLT. Does the 50-200 stand for the kettle also?


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[denny]

IIRC, Martin has said that Ca influences flocculation and too much can make the yeast drop out early.  Caveat: my memory isn't what it used to be

[Megary]

My Bru’nWater notes on Calcium are 50-100ppm.  But doesn’t malt also contribute calcium?  So if you target 50ppm Ca, and you get some from the malt, you should have some number > 50 in the mash. How much transfers to the kettle though??  I admit, this is where it gets fuzzy to me.

[BrewBama]

I agree with both of you. I am taking a minimalist approach to futzing with water. I am seeking a balance to do what is necessary, but no more.

I start from a distilled blank slate and target the mash pH with CaCl and/or gypsum at ~50 ppm Ca total. I don’t even tickle the top end so wether it’s 100 or 200 is fine.

How much transfers over to the kettle and how much to supplement (if any)? ...and to Denny’s point how much in the kettle is too much? Still 50-100/200?

“Zero additional Ca in the BK is required” could be the right answer. I just can’t find it.

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[Wilbur]

My Bru’nWater notes on Calcium are 50-100ppm.  But doesn’t malt also contribute calcium?  So if you target 50ppm Ca, and you get some from the malt, you should have some number > 50 in the mash. How much transfers to the kettle though??  I admit, this is where it gets fuzzy to me.

Tonsmeire wrote an article in BYO about the change in water profiles from the mash to the finished beer. They show some of the results in the blog below, that's in a NEIPA though. Malt might contribute some, but yeast may consume more calcium than malt typically provides? I'd love to find out a bit more so I can dial in my profiles though.


http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

[BrewBama]

Found it (finally). Kai said the recommended range accounts for the loss: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=14970.0

Seems the loss is somewhere between 28-40% but Martin says it’s too fuzzy to accurately predict.

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[erockrph]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

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[denny]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

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I recall the same.

[ynotbrusum]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

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I recall the same.

My concern would be how to get my RO water boosted with needed Cl and SO4 without hitting around 50 ppm of Ca, since I use CaCl2 and CaSO4 as the salts...just thinking out loud, as I haven't run anything through a brewing calculator.  I tend to shoot for 50 ppm Ca for my lighter lagers and ales, both.

[denny]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

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I recall the same.

My concern would be how to get my RO water boosted with needed Cl and SO4 without hitting around 50 ppm of Ca, since I use CaCl2 and CaSO4 as the salts...just thinking out loud, as I haven't run anything through a brewing calculator.  I tend to shoot for 50 ppm Ca for my lighter lagers and ales, both.

I often use Epsom salts when I want to boost SO4 without adding Ca.

[ynotbrusum]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I recall the same.

My concern would be how to get my RO water boosted with needed Cl and SO4 without hitting around 50 ppm of Ca, since I use CaCl2 and CaSO4 as the salts...just thinking out loud, as I haven't run anything through a brewing calculator.  I tend to shoot for 50 ppm Ca for my lighter lagers and ales, both.

I often use Epsom salts when I want to boost SO4 without adding Ca.

Yes, that can surely be done and then it is a matter of balancing the magnesium and its effect on the process and outcome...

[denny]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

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I recall the same.

My concern would be how to get my RO water boosted with needed Cl and SO4 without hitting around 50 ppm of Ca, since I use CaCl2 and CaSO4 as the salts...just thinking out loud, as I haven't run anything through a brewing calculator.  I tend to shoot for 50 ppm Ca for my lighter lagers and ales, both.

I often use Epsom salts when I want to boost SO4 without adding Ca.

Yes, that can surely be done and then it is a matter of balancing the magnesium and its effect on the process and outcome...

I use it in such small quantities that isnt a problem for me.

[ynotbrusum]

Yea, when I have used Epsom Salts, it is a smidgen - (2-3 g) at most. 

[denny]

Yea, when I have used Epsom Salts, it is a smidgen - (2-3 g) at most.

My theory is to use it to supplement gypsum, not replace it.

[mabrungard]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

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I recall the same.

Me too!

But seriously, calcium in brewing water can be helpful.  An important factor is that the adage: "If some is good, more is better" is not really applicable or true in brewing.  Including at least 40 ppm calcium in the water appears to be sufficient for precipitating oxalate out of wort.  Adding more calcium is truly a matter of taste since it's the most common way of getting chloride and sulfate into the wort.  But adding a bunch of calcium is not always good for beer flavor. 

Yes, there is a calcium precipitation reaction in the kettle.  I recall analytic results from some Sierra Nevada tests that showed a modest calcium loss.  So that much is true.  But that still doesn't mean that you need to account for that loss in formulating your water.  Beer taste should still be your guide and more is not always better. 

As mentioned above, 50 ppm Ca is a decent target when brewing ales.  That ale target is NOT applicable when brewing lagers since it appears that many lager strains are adversely sensitive to calcium (it replaces desirable magnesium from the yeast cell walls) and there can be unsatisfactory results when calcium content is that high.  Be aware that malt provides all the calcium that yeast need for their nutrition and brewing with no calcium in the water will still produce decent beer, its just that some beers can be better with the proper ionic content for flavor.